2003-2004 UDC Info
- Thread starter cj42
- Start date
xDiesel03
New member
Does anyone have any tips for tuning BBI 2's? I got them so I would have the ability to go to a 63/480 setup down the road, but currently all I'm running is the 63. I haven't checked mileage yet, but I know its skewed because of excessive "testing." Using the factory flow specs, I changed duration to be around 33% over stock so that I don't over fuel my turbo. Now that I have the reduced duration table in the timing calculator my max timing value is around 16 degrees with 48-52% splits in the upper end. As I get time I plan on increasing duration to find out the max safe levels for a tow and a daily drive tune on my current setup, which will obviously cause the timing to increase in the calculator. However 16 is at least five degrees less max timing than I was running in my last program before adding the injectors. Because there is more fuel at each duration value with larger injectors it seems like they should run the same, if not more timing. However, doing so causes the splits to significantly break the 50/50 rule. Does the 50/50 split rule no longer apply when running larger injectors, or am I completely off on this one? I don't have head studs yet and I don't want to break anything...
Still use the 50 split rule until you can pull pre and post inj events. I went back to the 52% split on my last tune i wrote. Go grab efi live software and you will see how much fuel the other two inj events add and where they add them and you will see why you dont wanna run higher splits.
xDiesel03
New member
Thank you redram. If I'm looking at creating a max power tune, what is the max safe limits for rail pressure on BBIs? I know the new trucks run 26k from the factory and I'm curious how close to that I can push without hurting anything.
Also, does anyone have any input on making a tune specific for water/meth. Because it is decreasing EGTs, it makes sense that you could add more timing to squeeze out more power until it reaches your non water/meth EGT levels.
Also, does anyone have any input on making a tune specific for water/meth. Because it is decreasing EGTs, it makes sense that you could add more timing to squeeze out more power until it reaches your non water/meth EGT levels.
Here is my latest program I am running. You can see my splits are higher then 50/50 in some area's and my rail at 3000RPM is above stock as well. This is not intended for use but just show you where I am in my program. I hope in the spring to get some dyno time..
For you guys wanting to see how the duration table effects area's. For example go to the duration table in the spread sheet and enter a value of "0" in the M13 cell (1700 RPM@56.4%). Then go to the compare tab and see what timing table cells are effected.. You will see it effects the cruising area in the 1800-2200 RPM range..
For you guys wanting to see how the duration table effects area's. For example go to the duration table in the spread sheet and enter a value of "0" in the M13 cell (1700 RPM@56.4%). Then go to the compare tab and see what timing table cells are effected.. You will see it effects the cruising area in the 1800-2200 RPM range..
xDiesel03
New member
This is what I am currently running on the truck. Planning on taking it to the dyno on Saturday so I'll post up some numbers and a graph soon. I haven't messed with it a whole lot since I got the injectors dialed in. I could still fine tune it a little, but it is relatively smoke free, especially if I just roll into the throttle. Averaged just over 18mpg with mixed city/hwy driving over the winter months and mileage is picking up with thewarmer weather. EGTs aren't too bad, but on a long pull in 6th gear at WOT they will hit 1400 before I let off - that happens at around 2800rpm. Cruising EGTs are about 650. I have not towed with this tune. Also, I haven't really noticed any difference in power or EGTs with the water/meth kit. Might need to put both of the big nozzles in - using one big and one small right now based on my estimated power.
Here are my questions:
1) When and how much pilot is cut when turning it off with the SSR? I would think this could have increased mileage potential since less fuel is being used.
2) I am smoke free up top and have great power, but it runs hotter than I'd like. This means I need to drop duration and timing, correct?
3) I'll be doing three pulls on Saturday. What are the steps to dyno tuning UDC (e.g. how much duration do you add with each degree of timing and how do you know when you are at peak hp)?
Here are my questions:
1) When and how much pilot is cut when turning it off with the SSR? I would think this could have increased mileage potential since less fuel is being used.
2) I am smoke free up top and have great power, but it runs hotter than I'd like. This means I need to drop duration and timing, correct?
3) I'll be doing three pulls on Saturday. What are the steps to dyno tuning UDC (e.g. how much duration do you add with each degree of timing and how do you know when you are at peak hp)?
xDiesel03
New member
Ok, so the tune I posted made 485hp on the dyno. I ended up making some adjustments to see what would happen. Specifically, I tried dropping timing two degrees, and then adding a few degrees to see if I needed to go up or down for peak power. I also closed off the wastegate on the last two tunes and boost changed from 38psi to 45psi.
By increasing to 24.6 max timing I made more power - 500hp. Then at the suggestion of the dyno operator I closed off the wastegate and added a little more timing to 25.3 degrees max timing. On this run I made 517hp...so I decided to add more timing.
My final run was at 26.5 degrees max timing and made 529hp. I could've kept going up probably to 27-28 degrees, but the dyno event was about to close down so I called it a day. Also, my EGTs went from 1400 peak on the 485hp tune at 38psi (turbo is supposed to be most efficient at 35psi), to 1250 peak EGTs on the current tune at 45psi.
Truck also seems smoother on the top end like it isn't working as hard. None of these runs were done with water/meth injection because the solenoid on my set-up isn't working right now. I've attached the tune I made 529hp on as well as some pics of the dyno graphs. Runs were made on a load dyno so that's why the curve shifts depending on when the operator started loading the truck. I'm waiting on the company to send me the actual graphs sometime this week. Do these numbers seem low to anyone?
Anyways, these results confirmed my thoughts regarding splits with bigger injectors. Because I am injecting more fuel than the stock injectors, but at a much lower duration, the timing calculator doesn't compute enough timing to maximize combustion efficiency by following the 50-52% split rule. I definitely agree with waiting until the truck is on the dyno to start throwing timing at it, but from these results, I would say that it is better to set timing at what the engine runs best at instead of worrying about splits. I believe others have said something to that effect if I'm not mistaken.
By increasing to 24.6 max timing I made more power - 500hp. Then at the suggestion of the dyno operator I closed off the wastegate and added a little more timing to 25.3 degrees max timing. On this run I made 517hp...so I decided to add more timing.
My final run was at 26.5 degrees max timing and made 529hp. I could've kept going up probably to 27-28 degrees, but the dyno event was about to close down so I called it a day. Also, my EGTs went from 1400 peak on the 485hp tune at 38psi (turbo is supposed to be most efficient at 35psi), to 1250 peak EGTs on the current tune at 45psi.
Truck also seems smoother on the top end like it isn't working as hard. None of these runs were done with water/meth injection because the solenoid on my set-up isn't working right now. I've attached the tune I made 529hp on as well as some pics of the dyno graphs. Runs were made on a load dyno so that's why the curve shifts depending on when the operator started loading the truck. I'm waiting on the company to send me the actual graphs sometime this week. Do these numbers seem low to anyone?
Anyways, these results confirmed my thoughts regarding splits with bigger injectors. Because I am injecting more fuel than the stock injectors, but at a much lower duration, the timing calculator doesn't compute enough timing to maximize combustion efficiency by following the 50-52% split rule. I definitely agree with waiting until the truck is on the dyno to start throwing timing at it, but from these results, I would say that it is better to set timing at what the engine runs best at instead of worrying about splits. I believe others have said something to that effect if I'm not mistaken.
Attachments
So if you had more time you could have increased your timing even more in the 2700-3200 RPM range above 62% load.. Your splits appear to be between 58 and 68 in the higher rpm ranges.. Sounds like you can add a little more duration and timing and keep your egt's below 1400.. I need to get too a dino soon. You wouldn't want to send your last program in the calc sheet would you? I wonder how F1.5 compare to BBi stage 2's..
xDiesel03
New member
Here is the timing calculator. v41 is what I used on the dyno for that last run, and v42 is what I plan on trying out tomorrow. Yea, I could probably add a little more duration up top as well since my EGTs are lower, but I don't want to do too much until I can do head studs. Daily driving the tune I was running was fairly clean , but on the dyno it smoked quite a bit when the operator loaded the engine up. I didn't really change anything other than the timing on the top end at the dyno because it takes me a little longer to properly adjust the duration table. However, I think I might have been using too little timing so now that I have the top end where I want it I'm going to play around with the spool region and bottom end, thus what you see on v42.
I'm not sure how the F1.5s compare to the BBI 2s in regards to flow specs, but I know the BBI 2s that I'm using came from a guy who made just shy of 1000hp on them before he twisted the input shaft. He was obviously running a high pulse width to get there whereas mine are defueled to run clean at the power levels you see in the dyno results I posted. Ideally get to a dyno so you can gradually add timing and duration until power starts to drop and then back it off a few degrees, but from what I've read the sweet spot is somewhere between 24-28 degrees for max timing. If you took duration out of your 1.5s then to get this timing value in the calculator will put you over the 50-52% split. Hope this helps.
I'm not sure how the F1.5s compare to the BBI 2s in regards to flow specs, but I know the BBI 2s that I'm using came from a guy who made just shy of 1000hp on them before he twisted the input shaft. He was obviously running a high pulse width to get there whereas mine are defueled to run clean at the power levels you see in the dyno results I posted. Ideally get to a dyno so you can gradually add timing and duration until power starts to drop and then back it off a few degrees, but from what I've read the sweet spot is somewhere between 24-28 degrees for max timing. If you took duration out of your 1.5s then to get this timing value in the calculator will put you over the 50-52% split. Hope this helps.
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I found that dropping my tq table helped quite a bit with smoke if nothing else worked.. I think the highest I go the tq table is 60.. Also I had a smoke issues in the 1800-2000 RPM @ 75%-85% area forever so I said just dropped my duration there and that helped a bunch... I don't know if that was the right thing to do but I have cut my duration table pretty much everywhere except for about 6-8 cells in the WOT area.. You need to try to get Randy or John to chime in.
paulb
New member
Nice job on the tune. As you said it is a very conservative tune, but well written. I suspect it runs very smooth at cruise, and accelerates smoothly, but perhaps is a little hard to control the smoke during slight accelerations.
Do you get any lope at an idle when you start it cold?
Again, nice job.
Paul
Do you get any lope at an idle when you start it cold?
Again, nice job.
Paul
xDiesel03
New member
Paul,
Thanks! You are spot on with your assessment, and yes it does lope a little when cold. To minimize smoke I have to roll into the throttle from 1500-1900 and by 2000 I can go WOT. I am currently in the works of adjusting my duration table some more. The one thing that has been bugging me is off idle responsiveness. The truck pulls hard once the turbo starts to spool, but if I try to get on it hard to pull out in traffic it smokes and has a delayed response. Do you have any tips on how to fix this problem?
-Bill
Thanks! You are spot on with your assessment, and yes it does lope a little when cold. To minimize smoke I have to roll into the throttle from 1500-1900 and by 2000 I can go WOT. I am currently in the works of adjusting my duration table some more. The one thing that has been bugging me is off idle responsiveness. The truck pulls hard once the turbo starts to spool, but if I try to get on it hard to pull out in traffic it smokes and has a delayed response. Do you have any tips on how to fix this problem?
-Bill
When you are cruising on the highway 1800-2000 RPM range do you know what your engine load is? My truck tends to cruise in the 25%-31% a majority of the time.. What are you seeing EGT's when cruising? I see 650-750 degree's I tried my timing that low and I would easily see 1000 degree's. My turbo is a 63/68 14 not a 12 like you guys are running so my guess is you guys spool a little quicker..
paulb
New member
The easy one first... The lope you have at an idle when cold is from to much duration at an idle. Cut back the idle duration (probably about 8% with the size of the injectors you have) and you should be fine.
The smoke during acceleration is easy fairly easy to fix, it's just describing the fix that's hard.
It has been mentioned many times that the duration map is miss labeled. If you look at the excel spread sheet that John made, the axis across the top should be load, and the one on the left side should be rail pressure. At least that's what matches my trucks. Also notice that the load is not linear. The last few cells going to the right side are ~50% of the load. If you have a fairly flat increase in duration going from left to right (as you do in most of your map), then the ramp up of fuel increase with load is going to be pretty quick. If you put more of a curve, that matches the rate that load increases, then it won't over fuel under acceleration. If you make the curve to steep, then you will get a surge when accelerating from a cruise.
The biggest thing is to actually determine what part of the duration map you are in. Cruise is much farther towards the bottom of the map and much farther to the right then most people think it is. At a cruise look at what your rail pressure and load are. Pick that spot on the duration map. Then accelerate slightly and see what happens to both your load and rail pressure. Pick that spot on the map. In your case you will probably see that you are going up in rail pressure and way up in duration. Without knowing what your truck runs during cruise it's a guess, but probably a pretty good one.
I hope this helps.
Paul
The smoke during acceleration is easy fairly easy to fix, it's just describing the fix that's hard.
It has been mentioned many times that the duration map is miss labeled. If you look at the excel spread sheet that John made, the axis across the top should be load, and the one on the left side should be rail pressure. At least that's what matches my trucks. Also notice that the load is not linear. The last few cells going to the right side are ~50% of the load. If you have a fairly flat increase in duration going from left to right (as you do in most of your map), then the ramp up of fuel increase with load is going to be pretty quick. If you put more of a curve, that matches the rate that load increases, then it won't over fuel under acceleration. If you make the curve to steep, then you will get a surge when accelerating from a cruise.
The biggest thing is to actually determine what part of the duration map you are in. Cruise is much farther towards the bottom of the map and much farther to the right then most people think it is. At a cruise look at what your rail pressure and load are. Pick that spot on the duration map. Then accelerate slightly and see what happens to both your load and rail pressure. Pick that spot on the map. In your case you will probably see that you are going up in rail pressure and way up in duration. Without knowing what your truck runs during cruise it's a guess, but probably a pretty good one.
I hope this helps.
Paul
xDiesel03
New member
Sorry for the delayed response. cj42, with the last tune I posted, here is what I am running for the cruise region:
1800: 550 degrees, 25-31% load
2000: 600 degrees, 25-31% load
2200: 650 degrees, 31-37% load
I recently added 0.3-0.5 degrees throughout my cruise region to see how it affects mileage, but I haven't tested for EGTs and load as of yet. Over the next few months, I plan on playing with cruise region timing, rail pressure, and duration to see which combination yields the best cruise MPG. T
Paul, thank you very much. I've read the threads a lot, but I guess I just didn't really grasp the duration table until now.
Here is what I have found:
First, the lope is gone. I didn't realize the too much fuel at idle is what caused the lope. Also, I realized that the slight stutter at cruise (didn't mention this before) was from where I altered the stock duration table without ensuring it was smooth. For anyone with larger than stock injectors experiencing a stutter, take a look at your duration map and make sure that the values increase from left to right in each row, and from bottom to top in each column. Stutter is now completely gone, and acceleration is smoother at lower loads with timing and rail pressure staying constant.
For heavy acceleration, I spent some time smoothing things out and making more of an exponential curve in the last few columns rather than a linear increase to WOT. This has significantly decreased, if not nearly eliminated all of my 37-71% load acceleration haze/smoke from 1800 RPM and up. For my WOT column, I have duration dropping significantly at my 1400RPM WOT rail pressure and then gradually increasing as rail pressure increases to its max value at 2200RPM. However, I am still a little bit smoky at WOT until I pass 2500 RPM so I am going to try a few things. First, I plan on continuing to adjust the duration table, but I also plan on adjusting my timing and torque management.
My max rail pressure and duration occur at roughly 2200 RPM. This results in some smoke until I pass 2500 RPM, at which point it fades into a good combustion haze. To resolve the smoke below 2500 RPM, I am going to try and adjust my timing so that I have lower values and a lower ramp rate leading up to the 2600 column, at which point I will keep my current timing values and ramp rate because I know it runs cool and clean. For smoke control below 2000 RPM I am going to play with my max torque management value and see if it helps.
My residual issue is still in the off idle responsiveness of the truck. Pauls suggestion significantly increased responsiveness, but its still not like it used to be. With the previous box tuner (old prototype Bullydog) it would easily break the tires loose in 2nd or 3rd gear at low to mid RPM range and now it doesn't do so until higher in the RPM band. Is this just the nature of having a slightly larger than stock turbo, or am I leaving power on the table somewhere with my tuning? I'm not trying to wear out my tires, but I do want to maximize power output throughout the RPM band and be able to take off quick without free-revving or brake boosting. What are you guys running for timing and rail pressure in the 87-100% load region from 1400-2000 and how is your responsiveness?
Thanks,
Bill
1800: 550 degrees, 25-31% load
2000: 600 degrees, 25-31% load
2200: 650 degrees, 31-37% load
I recently added 0.3-0.5 degrees throughout my cruise region to see how it affects mileage, but I haven't tested for EGTs and load as of yet. Over the next few months, I plan on playing with cruise region timing, rail pressure, and duration to see which combination yields the best cruise MPG. T
Paul, thank you very much. I've read the threads a lot, but I guess I just didn't really grasp the duration table until now.
Here is what I have found:
First, the lope is gone. I didn't realize the too much fuel at idle is what caused the lope. Also, I realized that the slight stutter at cruise (didn't mention this before) was from where I altered the stock duration table without ensuring it was smooth. For anyone with larger than stock injectors experiencing a stutter, take a look at your duration map and make sure that the values increase from left to right in each row, and from bottom to top in each column. Stutter is now completely gone, and acceleration is smoother at lower loads with timing and rail pressure staying constant.
For heavy acceleration, I spent some time smoothing things out and making more of an exponential curve in the last few columns rather than a linear increase to WOT. This has significantly decreased, if not nearly eliminated all of my 37-71% load acceleration haze/smoke from 1800 RPM and up. For my WOT column, I have duration dropping significantly at my 1400RPM WOT rail pressure and then gradually increasing as rail pressure increases to its max value at 2200RPM. However, I am still a little bit smoky at WOT until I pass 2500 RPM so I am going to try a few things. First, I plan on continuing to adjust the duration table, but I also plan on adjusting my timing and torque management.
My max rail pressure and duration occur at roughly 2200 RPM. This results in some smoke until I pass 2500 RPM, at which point it fades into a good combustion haze. To resolve the smoke below 2500 RPM, I am going to try and adjust my timing so that I have lower values and a lower ramp rate leading up to the 2600 column, at which point I will keep my current timing values and ramp rate because I know it runs cool and clean. For smoke control below 2000 RPM I am going to play with my max torque management value and see if it helps.
My residual issue is still in the off idle responsiveness of the truck. Pauls suggestion significantly increased responsiveness, but its still not like it used to be. With the previous box tuner (old prototype Bullydog) it would easily break the tires loose in 2nd or 3rd gear at low to mid RPM range and now it doesn't do so until higher in the RPM band. Is this just the nature of having a slightly larger than stock turbo, or am I leaving power on the table somewhere with my tuning? I'm not trying to wear out my tires, but I do want to maximize power output throughout the RPM band and be able to take off quick without free-revving or brake boosting. What are you guys running for timing and rail pressure in the 87-100% load region from 1400-2000 and how is your responsiveness?
Thanks,
Bill
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