2.5 2012

[fearthedeere6.7]

no you missed my point, what im saying is making it a 2.5 turbo class doesnt just make it $2000-3000 more
xpensive there is alot more parts going to break at 650-700 hp then at 500-550hp thats all am saying, so what ur saying is that if you put on a 2.5 turbo on a 95 12v its going to run with a vnt 2.5 on any of the newer trucks? i dont see it happening but im not a cummins guy so im not sure i dont see where this class helps the sport grow

Ok lets say I agree with a stock turbo class. What do you define a stock charger? The exact turbo that came on that make and model, or can i put a CR cummins turbo on my 12v, what a bout a dmax vnt, or maybe a set of 6.4 ford twins. How would you tech stock chargers? I think your going to have more people playing dirty in a stock charged class.

On edit> A stock class bumps a lot of people up to 2.6 with a mild upgraded turbo. I cant even pull my dd in stock class. But a you can still pull with a stock turbo in 2.5 which allows more people to pull. And as far as stock turbos competing when i pulled my 6.7 cummins i got 70ft put on my by a dmax in ws then he hung weight and placed top 5 in 2.6 with a stock turbo.

The fact of the matter is that rules need set they need to be set in a way they are black and white no gary area, they need to be "fair", and they need to be simple and easy to tech. I dont think a stock turbo class is any of those but thats just my two pennys. I also dont think itd hurt to have a few trained tech guys either way you go. say you get 10 guys together set the rules divide the the pulls up and make sure a guy is at each one with the same tools to tech. All he has to do is check turbos his say is law end of story. You wont have any of this nonsence of whos plugs work on whos turbos and whos legal here and not there.

 

[Brayden]

When u say OEM do you mean unaltered, as in not chanfered. And along with the 2.5 straight bore needs to be a minimum of say 1/2 in maintained in front of the comp wheel...

It's the OEM factory S463 bore, which mic's 2.542. The chamfer on the front doesn't matter because there is no bore restriction..

What matters is that it's checked with a 2.550" instrument that has a perfect 90 degree corner and has a hollow center to clear the shaft.

 

[Brayden]

Ok lets say I agree with a stock turbo class. What do you define a stock charger? The exact turbo that came on that make and model, or can i put a CR cummins turbo on my 12v, what a bout a dmax vnt, or maybe a set of 6.4 ford twins. How would you tech stock chargers? I think your going to have more people playing dirty in a stock charged class.

On edit> A stock class bumps a lot of people up to 2.6 with a mild upgraded turbo. I cant even pull my dd in stock class. But a you can still pull with a stock turbo in 2.5 which allows more people to pull. And as far as stock turbos competing when i pulled my 6.7 cummins i got 70ft put on my by a dmax in ws then he hung weight and placed top 5 in 2.6 with a stock turbo.

The fact of the matter is that rules need set they need to be set in a way they are black and white no gary area, they need to be "fair", and they need to be simple and easy to tech. I dont think a stock turbo class is any of those but thats just my two pennys. I also dont think itd hurt to have a few trained tech guys either way you go. say you get 10 guys together set the rules divide the the pulls up and make sure a guy is at each one with the same tools to tech. All he has to do is check turbos his say is law end of story. You wont have any of this nonsence of whos plugs work on whos turbos and whos legal here and not there.

I agree totally..

Maybe the way to fix it is to get ITPA and the other org's to pick up the 2.5 class because it has the highest truck count at every pull out there.

Brayden

 

[MarkBroviak]

I agree totally..

Maybe the way to fix it is to get ITPA and the other org's to pick up the 2.5 class because it has the highest truck count at every pull out there.

Brayden

This would be a great idea and needs to be addressed at the fall meeting.

 

[zstroken]

I agree totally..

Maybe the way to fix it is to get ITPA and the other org's to pick up the 2.5 class because it has the highest truck count at every pull out there.

Brayden

Until one of the current 2.6 trucks drops, puts on a hot 2.5 charger, and cleans up that class. Then the other 2.5 trucks will be wanting a new class. Might as well just go to a naturally aspirated class now.

 

[SmokeShow]

How is it going to be any easier to tech 2.5 chargers than stock? There's bound to be way more varieties of aftermarket chargers than stock ones. I imagine the right ppl can tell within about 10sec of inspection if the turbo is stock or not. At least on the comp side.

I think it's insanity to have a 2.5 class as the entry class (ESPECIALLY if it's going to be a dual cp3 class) & have a 2.6 class just above it. Its a foolish assumption to think the level of trucks in this class will remain at a level that your street truck wins. Thats an absolute fantasy a great majority of the time because people WILL build dedicated pulling trucks. It wont be a cheap class within a year or two & its just too close to 2.6 IMO. That's just my opinion though & those are like noses, everyones got one.

 

[duramaxxin73]

I agree totally..

Maybe the way to fix it is to get ITPA and the other org's to pick up the 2.5 class because it has the highest truck count at every pull out there.

Brayden

only problem with that is the gas guys in ITPA will want to put a bunch of safety rules in place to kill the truck count. I'm all for a 2.5 class it would definitely be the ITPA class with the highest truck count:rockwoot:

 

[scott 06]

yea i cant see any reason to have a aftermarket 2.5 turbo class its def going to add to the teching, and a 2.5 class is not a entry class at all, but even in workstock class around here you some people are getting a lil crazy but its all legal its just their choice to make the leap, i mean ive seen some workstock trucks with some hitches way under the truck like there is no way they could even use the truck to pull a trailer anymore the way its tucked under, and it def does help them but is the extra 6-8 inches under the truck worth it to me to not be able to use my truck everyday to tow a trailer or camper... no not for a 10 dollar trophy .

 

[jneal]

only problem with that is the gas guys in ITPA will want to put a bunch of safety rules in place to kill the truck count. I'm all for a 2.5 class it would definitely be the ITPA class with the highest truck count:rockwoot:

That meeting would last longer than the OJ trial.

 

[scott 06]

Ok lets say I agree with a stock turbo class. What do you define a stock charger? The exact turbo that came on that make and model, or can i put a CR cummins turbo on my 12v, what a bout a dmax vnt, or maybe a set of 6.4 ford twins. How would you tech stock chargers? I think your going to have more people playing dirty in a stock charged class.

a stock charger is a oem charger that came on that model/year truck from the factory thats how our rules read, and it works pretty good for us i dont believe we have any people with "cheeteh" type turbos this year and thats good and competition is really tight this year


On edit> A stock class bumps a lot of people up to 2.6 with a mild upgraded turbo. I cant even pull my dd in stock class. But a you can still pull with a stock turbo in 2.5 which allows more people to pull. And as far as stock turbos competing when i pulled my 6.7 cummins i got 70ft put on my by a dmax in ws then he hung weight and placed top 5 in 2.6 with a stock turbo.


is your 6.7 cummins set-up as good as the duramax, because that dont happen around here we ussauly have the top 10 trucks within 10 feet of each other and they arent all duramaxes

The fact of the matter is that rules need set they need to be set in a way they are black and white no gary area, they need to be "fair", and they need to be simple and easy to tech. I dont think a stock turbo class is any of those but thats just my two pennys. I also dont think itd hurt to have a few trained tech guys either way you go. say you get 10 guys together set the rules divide the the pulls up and make sure a guy is at each one with the same tools to tech. All he has to do is check turbos his say is law end of story. You wont have any of this nonsence of whos plugs work on whos turbos and whos legal here and not there.

i can agree with the fact that there needs to be trained techs that have some knowledge idk how many times ive been asked by techs if my white nylon boost line was nitrous come on, but with our pulling club mapa that started this year the events that are in their points series their techs are they and the tech goes smooth because they know what the are looking at

 

[heybob]

Holy crap this is ridiculous. No shop would build a charger that would only pass tech if THEIR own tech equipment was used -

Not sure who's tech equipment FI was planning on being used, but this is a 2.6 cover bought like a month ago from them...plug is 2.6505 with a mic and slips in with ease...

 

[Brayden]

Until one of the current 2.6 trucks drops, puts on a hot 2.5 charger, and cleans up that class. Then the other 2.5 trucks will be wanting a new class. Might as well just go to a naturally aspirated class now.

What are you talking about? They're going to ditch their dual pumps, water to air, weight bracket, etc?Then clean up in a class against guys that have their setups ironed out for 2 years and know how to get it to the ground? I don't think so.

Define a "hot" 2.5 charger? A precision GT42 with a 63mm compressor inducer? That is about on par with what we're running, using borg parts. Is a precision going to make that much more air than a borg? Is a 13mm pump going to help? I'd say he'd be on a level playing field.. which is the whole point.

The best 2.5 trucks right now can and do finish mid pack or better in 2.6. Are they going to qualify at Scheids in 2.6? Don't know. but we'll find out what a single pump and a protrusion charger will do this year with a couple of our work stock trucks.



Brayden

 

[Smokem]

Let's look at the facts; this is sled pulling and there will most likely never be an "entry" level class. The person whom spends the most money and or time will win consistently. If either a 2.5" straight bore or restrictor were used, they would both have to be teched. And should be most notable, the Workstock or 2.5" class has the most entries because it is the cheapest class.

I see two different discussions here. A proposal for a straight bore turbo class, which would be achievable on the hp table for less of an investment than any other class. But, is still a turbo class. And a proposal for a restrictor, appropriately sized, to allow the use of many different turbochargers including the ability to be competitive with a stock turbocharger.

These two ideas should not be compared on the same level. A 2.5" class is another turbocharger rule class, period. Which may not be a bad move, but this needs to be understood. Or a restrictor in which would attempt to keep various different turbochargers on an even playing field.

I see the 2.5" class ~ 300hp down from the current 2.6" class, and the ideal restrictor class ~ 100hp less than that. But what needs to be looked at is the safety side of things. If a restrictor is used for an "entry" level class, will the appropriate safety equipment be required? If so, then part-timers won't apply. I'm sure for insurance reasons many would like to see this safety equipment, and therefore a lower hp turbo class with safety requirements may be an appropriate route. You either do it for the enjoyment, or compete to be competitive.

Truth is no real progress is being made in this debate, it's just "my way is right" and "your way is wrong". And to say a restrictor would never work is simply naive. They are used on racing programs that make our sport look like peanuts budget wise, and very successfully for a reason. I don't care what path is taken, it will most likely be as difficult to come to agreement on this as finding an honest politician.

 

[BluegrassDiesel]

This would be a great idea and needs to be addressed at the fall meeting.

Ok so now we have 2 turbo builders on board for a turbo rule change :nail: :doh:

Am I the only one that thinks its a bad idea to let turbo builders dictate turbo rules?

Here is the rule that we have in Kentucky right now, and it has been working pretty good, with the exception of a couple of trucks that got caught cheating last night. The only reason they haven't been caught sooner is because there wasn't a competent tech that actually knew what to look for.

"Turbocharger: The turbocharger is limited to a stock un-modified, OEM/Factory charger with factory configuration only. Turbochargers from different years and different models may be interchanged. You are allowed to take a hx35 off a Cummins and put on your Duramax or vice versa and you are allowed to put a Duramax Turbo in your 82 Chevrolet with a 12 valve) twin
6.4L PowerStroke turbo’s are permitted."

 

[fearthedeere6.7]

Until one of the current 2.6 trucks drops, puts on a hot 2.5 charger, and cleans up that class. Then the other 2.5 trucks will be wanting a new class. Might as well just go to a naturally aspirated class now.

people are always gonna cry about something. Make the rules black and white and as fair as possible, and let them bit*h. Far as im concerned if its a legal turbo you can either pony up for more power, fine tune your setup, or find a sack put some balls in it and take your butt whooping like a man.

 

[fearthedeere6.7]

To add more the main reason im against stock turbos is theres no room to grow. Your either stock or last in 2.6. 2.5 allows pretty much anyone come and play that cant compete in 2.6. I thought we where talking about a pulling org. not brush pulls. When you sign up to itpa, bob, and ect. ect. your pretty much making your truck a dedicated puller. Sure some may be street driven, most pullers arent.

 

[zstroken]

What are you talking about? They're going to ditch their dual pumps, water to air, weight bracket, etc?Then clean up in a class against guys that have their setups ironed out for 2 years and know how to get it to the ground? I don't think so.

Define a "hot" 2.5 charger? A precision GT42 with a 63mm compressor inducer? That is about on par with what we're running, using borg parts. Is a precision going to make that much more air than a borg? Is a 13mm pump going to help? I'd say he'd be on a level playing field.. which is the whole point.

The best 2.5 trucks right now can and do finish mid pack or better in 2.6. Are they going to qualify at Scheids in 2.6? Don't know. but we'll find out what a single pump and a protrusion charger will do this year with a couple of our work stock trucks.



Brayden

Yes they will ditch their dual pumps, air to waters etc. Put that much more money into head porting, cam work, trying different turbos, injectors, tires etc.

 

[zstroken]

Let's look at the facts; this is sled pulling and there will most likely never be an "entry" level class. The person whom spends the most money and or time will win consistently. If either a 2.5" straight bore or restrictor were used, they would both have to be teched. And should be most notable, the Workstock or 2.5" class has the most entries because it is the cheapest class.

I see two different discussions here. A proposal for a straight bore turbo class, which would be achievable on the hp table for less of an investment than any other class. But, is still a turbo class. And a proposal for a restrictor, appropriately sized, to allow the use of many different turbochargers including the ability to be competitive with a stock turbocharger.

These two ideas should not be compared on the same level. A 2.5" class is another turbocharger rule class, period. Which may not be a bad move, but this needs to be understood. Or a restrictor in which would attempt to keep various different turbochargers on an even playing field.

I see the 2.5" class ~ 300hp down from the current 2.6" class, and the ideal restrictor class ~ 100hp less than that. But what needs to be looked at is the safety side of things. If a restrictor is used for an "entry" level class, will the appropriate safety equipment be required? If so, then part-timers won't apply. I'm sure for insurance reasons many would like to see this safety equipment, and therefore a lower hp turbo class with safety requirements may be an appropriate route. You either do it for the enjoyment, or compete to be competitive.

Truth is no real progress is being made in this debate, it's just "my way is right" and "your way is wrong". And to say a restrictor would never work is simply naive. They are used on racing programs that make our sport look like peanuts budget wise, and very successfully for a reason. I don't care what path is taken, it will most likely be as difficult to come to agreement on this as finding an honest politician.

Well said, what I do find sad in this sport and it seems more than in others is the cheating. Instead of reading the rules and following them, there are several folks that will build a truck and hope that it slides through tech, knowing that the truck is in violation of the rules. I am not referring to anyone in this thread, just some of the things I have seen.

Funny that someone is happier cheating and winning, than winning with an honest effort. If folks would honestly build their trucks to the rules we, wouldn't have to worry nearly so much about this crap.

I am not referring to gray areas, I am referring to a guy with an s300 trying to sneak into a stock turbo class, hoping the techs don't pop his hood, or know what they are looking at.

 

[02SFguy]

The 2.5 class we are running in IN works... NHRDA has the same rules... 2.5 64mm wheel NO hanging weight no injectables, no dual pumps... lots of power has been and will be made on a single cp3... the 64mm wheel air limits your horsepower anyway so the extra fuel you would get from the second pump would be useless... a box stock charger s400 or s300 based with the proper set up will be competitive... like it was said before everyone is still chasing a stock appearing turbo. The "bonestock" turbo rule is dumb who in there right mind would do all the fueling and tuning mods and still keep the stock turbo??? Also it should be duals only on a dually truck with factory dually wheels in the front, single wheel truck no duals. There are many ways to limit the class but why change something that works now?? If you go allowing dual pumps and stuff like that just jump to 2.6 your gonna blow your truck up anyway. (quote)

ok i pull with scott and few other guys on this thread and as far as i know we all have stock chargers. You can make a lot of power out of a truck without cheating. There is so much more that goes into pulling then just how much horsepower you make. I have no doubt that i have beat guys this year that make more power then me, however in the end they still lost. A class where you have to run a STOCK charger makes sense because then you truly are limited by your turbo. Like what was said on here before you can have as much fuel as you want but your turbo will only handle so much. If you tell a guy sure you can run the new danville charger or cheetah they will in turn be able to flow a lot more air and handle more fuel. For the poor boy like me i know i personally cant afford to spend 2500 on a charger just to stay in the "workstock" class. If i was ever gonna spend that much i would bump up to 2.6. I think MAPA has a solid set of rules and i agree with scott that we do have techs who are educated and know what to look for. On the Dmax for example, no company to my knowledge makes a "STOCK APPEARING" turbo where a factory appearing wheel is used. They all have wheels with blades that are inverted between each vertical blade. that should be pretty easy to tech. Regardless my point of this rant is i know several truck including mine that have a factory turbo and run great. I think there needs to be a OEM TURBO rule to cut down on the cheating aspect. Hell even guys who arent have been accused of cheating, but if someone thinks they are they can put the money up and let the techs tear it apart. just my$.02

 

[pierce460]

It's the OEM factory S463 bore, which mic's 2.542. The chamfer on the front doesn't matter because there is no bore restriction..

What matters is that it's checked with a 2.550" instrument that has a perfect 90 degree corner and has a hollow center to clear the shaft.

But yet the only 2 chargers that didnt pass tech happen to be yours... Could you explain to me as why the others in the class didnt have any problems passing tech..

Thanks