215 pump retard timing

Big Blue24 said:
There is a rack stop at 21mm so 4* is the maximum it could retard timing because 21mm is the maximum the rack will travel.


I think the key with 215 pumps is to adjust the fueling back to where available airflow meets fuel output.

For example, if you're running a stock HX35 turbo with airflow for 400hp, there is no sense in letting the rack travel past 13mm. At 13mm you'll get enough fuel to max out HP. At say 15mm rack travel, you will get more fueling but it will be slightly later and timing loss could actually result in a net loss of HP although you're technically injecting more fuel.

Now, for example, you have a large set of twin turbos capable of supporting 700 HP. At 13mm rack travel you will make about 400 HP. As you allow the rack to travel further, you will get more fuel along with retarded timing. However, because you have the airflow to burn all of the extra fuel, you will end up with a net increase in power.

What I wonder and wish someone could test on the dyno is what happens when the static timing is set at 30*? At full rack travel you'd have a ton of fuel and perfect timing at 26*. I wonder if power would be down slightly in the bottom end from too much timing and if you'd hit a "power band" or sudden surge in HP as soon as rack travel started hitting 13mm and started retarding.
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We actually did this in a buddies truck,
P-Pumped 24v
215 pump, 8x.018 injectors, full cuts, 10 plate, .093 towers, .093 lines. SPS 66 over an S480, and a ton more stuff. It was a 12v, put in Mahle 24v pistons, and the head.

We set his timing at 30* and that thing was freakin retared acting. Had a powerband from 3k-4k !! Turned the timing back down to 26 and ran a little better, maybe we will try and pull the plate back a bit ? But i think his truck did exactly what your talkin about ??
 
Anyone know what the rack travel is at idle? When I had my pump on the bench before I did the conversion, with the fuel cut off lever up, it was sitting at about 12mm travel. In theory, it should be less once it starts spinning and the governor will pull it back a bit.
 
so in theory what is the best fix with these retard notches. is there any way around them to get the most power out of them. it seems to me what ever you do is shadowed by the retard notches with how esy it is to get into them.
 
BPhips5 said:
so in theory what is the best fix with these retard notches. is there any way around them to get the most power out of them. it seems to me what ever you do is shadowed by the retard notches with how esy it is to get into them.
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right now the only fix is another pump or having someone put flat top plungers in your pump. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it that much unless you're shooting for some huge power. If you have the 215 pump already just understand how it works and use it. You may need to compensate with some additional timing if you plan to run big hp and full rack.
 
I thought I read somewhere that the cost of new flat top plungers and barrels is the same as 13mm plungers and barrels so you might as well upgrade if you need more fuel than a standard 215 pump can supply.
 
I'm having flat tops put in my 913 this winter , as for the ? about moving when applying throttle I did this today and it moves quit a bit Im at 29 now by the light so I thought I rev it up and it moved I did some quick burst dunno how many rpms but they were pretty as far how much it moved dunno I need another hand there working the pedal then I can move the dial so I can line the marks up , wish I had 3k springs in it then I would just hold to the floor BTW my 0 plate is lets say 1/16 from FF
 
so the best bet is backing the plate off until the timing is bumped up or the flat plunger and barrels kit.
 
BPhips5 said:
so the best bet is backing the plate off until the timing is bumped up or the flat plunger and barrels kit.
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That's what I did and the truck runs a heck of a lot better. Might back it off some more. Oh, and I'm at 16.5*.
 
i stuck on stock timing for now. so how far back should the plate be slid?
 
You can take it for what it is worth but my 887 pump is the best pump I have run to date, love it and will not get rid of it and have a 913 for the other truck. I could careless about all this in-depth rubbish about them, they perform, that's it! They don't work well at 21mm, no kidding, so don't set it there, some shops set them at 17mm cause they think that is right....wrong again.

Am I rambling here.

Jim
 
Not at all Jim, please continue. :pop:
It seems like all it takes is one person to say something bad about a part and then everyone thinks the whole thing is crap until the next fad of ranting rolls around. :rolleyes:

For those of us who have a 215 pump and are going to stick with it I'm interested in hearing more about the best ways to tune them. :Cheer:
 
I would like to hear more about this too. Just curious but I have a 215 pump with no plate and a gutted afc, how much rack travel should I have? Timing is at 20*. For max power would it be better to put a plate back in it or bump timing to compensate?
 
Jim Fulmer said:
You can take it for what it is worth but my 887 pump is the best pump I have run to date, love it and will not get rid of it and have a 913 for the other truck. I could careless about all this in-depth rubbish about them, they perform, that's it! They don't work well at 21mm, no kidding, so don't set it there, some shops set them at 17mm cause they think that is right....wrong again.

Am I rambling here.

Jim
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Jim, in reading your statement it would appear you're suggesting between 21 and 17, somewhere in the middle is the hot spot? Or if one was reading between the lines it would appear you're getting at there is a method one should use to figure out exactly where you should be. If the 887 you love (and I run) has had the barrels turned anywhere from where'd they'd be in a stock pump this needs to be pointed out when discussing your recommendations regarding full rack. Care to elaborate?
 
Kroner96 said:
I would like to hear more about this too. Just curious but I have a 215 pump with no plate and a gutted afc, how much rack travel should I have? Timing is at 20*. For max power would it be better to put a plate back in it or bump timing to compensate?
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I had the best result for max power with a 2095 rack plug, afc only no fuel plate, and 26 degrees of timing. You need to have the air though imho or it will be a waste of time. If you add the plug get ready for smoke like no other ha!
 
alright so after reading all this i have come to the conclusion thats these pumps have some potential. they just need the rack travel set right. and a bump in timing. what should i look at for my timing running the 100 plate everything else stock for now. bigger charger to come soon.
 
BPhips5 said:
alright so after reading all this i have come to the conclusion thats these pumps have some potential. they just need the rack travel set right. and a bump in timing. what should i look at for my timing running the 100 plate everything else stock for now. bigger charger to come soon.
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With no plate, afc setup properly, a stock rack plug (no 2095 plug), 20 degrees of timing, I ran a best of 12.07 at 110.6 mph in a 6250ish pound truck. That equates to about 580rwhp according to calculators. This was with an engineered diesel 468 turbo.

Right now i'd keep the plate in until you get the air to burn more fuel. 20 degrees sounds good to me if you have o-ringed the head. If you want more make sure to have head studs, timing of 26 or more, than remove the fuel plate and add a 2095 plug.
 
How could you adjust the afc? My truck is a puller so im not that worried about driveability and smoke.
 
Kroner96 said:
How could you adjust the afc? My truck is a puller so im not that worried about driveability and smoke.
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starwheel backed fully into housing (toward front of truck), governor spring in afc, grind the washer with the lip flat or just flip the washers so the washer with the lip is in the back (since you're a puller you don't necessarily need the added rear travel of having both washers flat), grind a portion (around 1/8th to 1/4 inch) off the front of the afc foot barrel (not the foot the barrel), and there you have it.
 
Mine has been on the stand, has a 2095 cap and when the truck broke it had a 100 plate in it, my thinking on the rack is 19mm, I know 21 doesn't work as it will cover a 2 lane up with smoke and doesn't rev crisp so I backed it off a little at a time till it screamed.......and broke.

Jim
 
Jim Fulmer said:
Mine has been on the stand, has a 2095 cap and when the truck broke it had a 100 plate in it, my thinking on the rack is 19mm, I know 21 doesn't work as it will cover a 2 lane up with smoke and doesn't rev crisp so I backed it off a little at a time till it screamed.......and broke.

Jim
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I gotya. I was just thinking if it's been on a stand and the position of the barrels has been changed what's 19mm to you may not be 19mm to those running stock 215 pumps myself included.

So what broke?

When I put the rack plug in my pump no other change (was already at 26 degrees) my head gasket broke:doh:
 
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