286110 vs 286210 Piston Performance ?

m880cummins

m880cummins

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Joined
Apr 29, 2013
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142
Alright guys,

I'm rebuilding the motor in my truck for the second time after I melted the ring lands on the first one. This failure was due to high EGTs, NO intercooler and a stock ring gap along with no torque plate hone. Those 4 things are all going to be addressed on the new motor.

I'm 20 so I'm anxious to learn! I rebuilt the motor myself the first time and it was a super fun truck and got 21mpg. This time around, I'm building it again myself but having UCF torque plate hone it and I am balancing the rods, pistons and pins all within 2 grams difference per cylinder. Rods will have polished beams to lighten several grams and reduce parasitic drag caused by oil clinging to the rough surface.

So, previous engine was:

215 Pump with 4k springs and tuned afc
370 injectors
s362
some port work on head
60 lb springs
gasket matched exhaust side
20* of timing
Mahle marine 286210 pistons flycut .040
ARP studs


So, now you know what I had. I'm not sure of power but I think I was near 500hp with the old setup. At full RPM pulling hard it would see 60lbs of boost (out of S362 map range) and EGTS would be 1500* if I stayed on it. I was uneasy over 1400* for more than 10 seconds. This time, I am building the motor using a 200/205 cam, 10* locks, maxspool pushrods and doing a runner intake, more port polish and O rings. I plan to shave 0.040 off the head to unshroud the valves and do .100 flycuts in the pistons.

Last winter, the truck was BAD to start in the cold with the low compression and timing. I have a set of used original CUMMINS NON IC pistons out of a 1989 Dodge that are extremely nice and am considering using them. I'm leaning towards 145* 5x16s from Contagious Diesel this time. Would I see any difference in performance over the 286210s? I suppose if I stuck with the marine injectors, I couldn't run as much timing as with the 210s. The 110 bowl looks similar to the 210 but is a little smaller in diameter.

110 top, 210 bottom (The 210 is one of my old pistons. As you can see 20* of timing was close to spraying out. Block and head were both decked .010 and had a .020 HG to make up for it)

NONICVSMARINE_zps8551eec0.jpg


Here's my low buck intercooler I built. Its a 3rd gen cooler I cut down to fit my truck and I TIG welded the ends back closed and added lower mounting ears. It is the BIGGEST IC I can fit in this body style. 39" wide, 20" tall and 2.5" thick. The height is from frame rail to hood.

B574AAD1-796F-4FB4-9416-D7A748324D2E_zpsvcjsz0f0.jpg


370923A0-C9D3-4F28-AF76-8B9DA8405267_zps3no1nvkn.jpg


Truck:

9A40F6F8-E4A4-4487-BAEE-ECA24FA1BE9D_zpstao7olaz.jpg


THANKS GUYS!

Charlie
 
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Subscribed. Looks like a fun project you got there. Wish I could offer you advice, but your way ahead of me on the oldy but goodys.
 
The things your changing didnt cause melted pistons. Also a 286110 has a larger bowl/lower compression than a 286210 piston.
 
Sorry, I got the numbers reversed. I know the piston bowl difference won't prevent meltdown. I'm just wondering of there are any hard facts behind these pistons or not.

I am going to measure the piston skirt to wall clearance on the new block. Hoping a torque plate hone job will keep everything in spec.

Yes, I got the intercooler from Nick. If I could make up some kind of explanation for the madness and what happened to Nick's trans it would be, you can only have the fastest truck for a little while, then it blows up!

Charlie
 
As far as EGTS go, I'm hoping this intercooler will bring temps down a couple hundred. Looking for max EGTs of 1250-1300 sustained. If it is more, I'll be adding H2O spray or changing the turbo for a 66/68 .83 setup.
 
I assume the 20* timing and almost spraying out of the piston reference was with 155* nozzles since they were 370's. 210's would be my choice, and I think 145* would be a bit tight. Going from a .060 injector washer to a .020 washer will allow you about 5* more timing taking .040 off the head will help even more.
 
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Also, with 4k springs, ditch the 200/205, call Hamilton, get a 188/220, and pushrods, flycut .070 if you're taking .040 off the head.
 
9724VF350 said:
I assume the 20* timing and almost spraying out of the piston reference was with 155* nozzles since they were 370's. 210's would be my choice, and I think 145* would be a bit tight. Going from a .060 injector washer to a .020 washer will allow you about 5* more timing taking .040 off the head will help even more.
Click to expand...

Is there a point at which having the injector too far into the bowl is detrimental?
 
Tate said:
Is there a point at which having the injector too far into the bowl is detrimental?
Click to expand...

Yes, I made a set of 7x.010" 148* injectors so dirty, slobbery, and unresponsive, it was mind boggling. They ran worse than full blown race 5x.025" as far as haze, throttle response, start-ability, fuel economy, etc.
 
Aren't the 286210's factory with 17.5:1 compression ratio? I have .150 reliefs in mine and I'm told that only drops the compression a point and a half, so I'm sitting at 16:1 which really isn't that bad. (Stock thickness head gasket)

Seems like the general consensus is to stick with the 210's, I'd listen to these guys. Good luck on your new motor!

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1416761908.140282.jpg
 
m880cummins said:
I'm rebuilding the motor in my truck for the second time after I melted the ring lands on the first one. This failure was due to high EGTs,

At full RPM pulling hard it would see 60lbs of boost (out of S362 map range) and EGTS would be 1500* if I stayed on it. I was uneasy over 1400* for more than 10 seconds.
Click to expand...

How did you melt the ring lands at 1500°? I have gotten my motor so hot it melted the egt probe off, melted the top of the pistons, cracked the valve seats on a brand new head, and the lands were fine. That was WELL over 2000°.

I have damaged ring lands but that was after the top of the piston melted so bad it blew past the rings and destroyed everything in its path.

m880cummins said:
Looking for max EGTs of 1250-1300 sustained. If it is more, I'll be adding H2O spray or changing the turbo for a 66/68 .83 setup.
Click to expand...

Your going to need a 66 to try and run anywhere near that temp, that 66 will probably run hotter then you want also, but anything under 2000° for short bursts if built right "shouldn't" hurt anything.

9724VF350 said:
Going from a .060 injector washer to a .020 washer will allow you about 5* more timing
Click to expand...

Closer to ≈ 2°
 
A 286210 piston is ~ 16.5:1 compression to start, a 0.150" valve relief will add roughly 7cc's of volume which would net ~ 15.1:1 compression, a 286110 piston with the same valve reliefs would be ~ 14.9:1 compression. These values are based off the piston protrusion remaining the same.
 
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9724VF350 said:
Going from a .060 injector washer to a .020 washer will allow you about 5* more timing taking.
Click to expand...

Every 0.020" is equal to roughly 1°.

Tate said:
Is there a point at which having the injector too far into the bowl is detrimental?
Click to expand...

This would depend on the cone angle piston dome design, I have seen instances where lowering the injector 0.100" added 40-50hp, at the same time I have also seen instances where reducing protrusion added power.
 
Smokem said:
A 286210 piston is ~ 16.5:1 compression to start, a 0.150" valve relief will add roughly 7cc's of volume which would net ~ 15.1:1 compression, a 286110 piston with the same valve reliefs would be ~ 14.9:1 compression. These values are based off the piston protrusion remaining the same.
Click to expand...

im confused, are we talking about the same 286210's??
 
A '96-97 stock piston has a 41.5cc bowl volume, the 286210 has a 43.2cc bowl volume, if the protrusion stays consistent it is impossible for a larger bowl volume to increase compression.
 
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