revolutiondsl
Cat buys my Cummins parts
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
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- 1,391
I just wish I could figure out why Banks spends thousands and thousands on advertising and will spout how great there products are on here but they wont sponsor the website.
Banks Technicooler & High Ram
- Thread starter OT-OF-Here
- Start date
OT-OF-Here
Owner of the Black Beach
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Messages
- 950
Bash Banks?
Was NOT my intention with initiating this thread. I feel those are products I would like to have on my truck and what better way to get feedback on it than start a thread. No one is bashful here,... they'll let you know what they think on products/service and issues.
Was NOT my intention with initiating this thread. I feel those are products I would like to have on my truck and what better way to get feedback on it than start a thread. No one is bashful here,... they'll let you know what they think on products/service and issues.
Boostediesel
Boost Addict
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2009
- Messages
- 575
are you the Banks parrott on Gale's shoulder? i said it before, Gale will only make cool stuff for himeself. the consumer is left to spend big money on overpriced stuff that does not live up to the advetisments. there is a reason that more people are dissapointed with Banks diesel products than any other diesel product manufacturer. the sad thing is for how advanced his dyno cell is or how many superflow benches he has,or that he is on a campus how many trucks do you see on the strip or at the dyno running his programming? how many guys have had problems with his customer service? like i have stated several other times, his Big Hoss intake manifolds for the Dmax and Cummins are nice pieces, so is the Technicooler, but he dropped the ball big time in the tuning, exhaust and intake horn department. and then to make claims that you have the best product out there is outlandish.
Boostediesel
Boost Addict
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- Oct 6, 2009
- Messages
- 575
you can tell the difference between the guys who do it because they love it and the guys who do it for self glorification and pocket book. everyone needs to make a buck, but come on. if Banks used his state of the art facility to start making some really sick tuners,better designed intake horns,nicer exhaust,turbo kits, standalone engine management and got some better customer service you would see a turnaround in how people view his products. it sad to see such a nice facilty, with great talent being used only for Gale and his toys.
jbarker@bosch
You're gonna do what?!
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2007
- Messages
- 513
Here we go again:
We just have flowbench data to show it but I'm sure your approach of just looking at the pictures and stating "it just can't work like that" is much better:umno:
You seem to be constantly trying to drag this thread into some wild off subject rant that has nothing to do with the OP. I'll put the ball in your court again, post up your PROOF (this would be fact and not opinion) that what we posted about our intercooler and intake manifold is false or you're just flapping your internet lips again.
jbarker@bosch
You're gonna do what?!
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- Oct 29, 2007
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- 513
07dodge
Most Hated
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
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Name: jbarker@banks
There's actually much more to it then just the drop in pressure loss. Obviously it's important to keep your boost loss to a minimum but the temp reduction and density recovery are just as important to the intercoolers performance. You could reduce the pressure drop to almost nothing by simply running a section of pipe directly from the turbo to the manifold (like we do on our drag race applications) but obviously this isn't for a daily driven application. This was written by our engineering department on the testing of the intercoolers we were able to get our hands on:
First of all, consider what the purpose of an intercooler is and why you might upgrade the stock unit. An intercooler (or charge air cooler, CAC) is a density machine. Its job is to increase the density of the intake air charge by cooling it, but it must do so without dramatically impacting the pressure of the intake air charge. Air density measurements take both the temperature and the pressure of the air into account. Specifically, to determine if an intercooler is doing a good job, you must compare the ambient air conditions (temperature and pressure) with the conditions in the intake manifold. Any aftermarket intercooler that is worth its salt should improve the air density over the capability of the stock unit, and this can only be evaluated on a live vehicle with appropriate instrumentation while simulated road circumstances in a controlled manner.
We used a 2006 Dodge Cummins truck (with a 2005 build date) and tested it in a variety of conditions. We ran tests under full load conditions (WOT) on a chassis dynamometer held at 2800 RPM for a minimum of 2 minutes until all temperatures stabilized and then evaluated data from the last 20 seconds of each run. A pair of high-powered fans was used at the front of the vehicle to provide 60 MPH of wind speed (simulating road conditions). Each vehicle condition was repeated a minimum of 3 times to ensure repeatability in the data. Our instrumentation list included: Ambient Temp, CAC Cold Side In Temp, CAC Cold Side Out Temp, CAC Hot Side In Temp, CAC Hot Side Out Temp, EGT, Ambient Pressure, Compressor Outlet Pressure, Intake Manifold Pressure, Fuel Flow, Cold Side Air Velocity, Intake Air Flow and Air Fuel Ratio. Some of these measurements are used to ensure consistency and stability in the tests, but the analysis of this data allows us to evaluate the following:
CAC Delta T Hot- the amount of temperature drop through the intercooler
System Delta P- The amount of pressure drop from the compressor out to the intake manifold
CAC Effectiveness- The ability of the CAC to reduce temperature as compared to abient, expressed as a percentage
Density Recovery- Evaluation of the density of the air compared to ambient considering both temperature and pressure
Cold Side Air Velocity- the speed of the air going through the face of the intercooler (lower speeds indicate more restriction to airflow for the radiator and other heat exchangers)
Testing was conducted over a number of days, however ambient conditions stayed very stable during the testing. Ambient temperature ranged between 84.9 and 91.2, barometric pressure ranged between 28.88 and 29.00 in-hg. The stock configuration was tested at the beginning and the end of the test sequence. Also tested were Spearco, BD, AFE and the Banks Techni-Cooler. Each was tested as they are sold.
CAC Delta T Hot
This is the difference in temperature between the inlet side (coming from the turbo) and outlet side of the intercooler (going to the intake manifold). This is one indicator of how well an intercooler is cooling the air. Stock had an average temperature drop of 289.7 degrees F. AFE had an average drop of 294.0 degrees, 1.5% more temperature drop than stock. Spearco was at 291.7 degrees (0.7% more temp drop), Banks was virtually even with stock with a drop of 289.3 degrees (0.1% difference). BD was 7.2% worse than stock with an average temperature drop of only 268.0 degrees F.
System Delta P
This is the difference in pressure between the turbo compressor outlet and the intake manifold pressure. This evaluates the change in pressure over the entire intercooler and inlet system. The more pressure that is preserved through the system, the higher the density will be. Stock had a pressure drop of 2.96 PSI. The Banks system had the least amount of pressure drop at 1.60 PSI (45.9% less pressure drop than stock). BD was next with 1.94 PSI pressure drop (34.5% less than stock), then Spearco with 2.17 PSI (26.7%) and AFE with 2.18 PSI (26.4%).
CAC Effectiveness (Temperature Reduction)
This is the calculated improvement in temperature in relation to ambient temperature expressed as a percentage. This calculation is performed using absolute temperature values (Rankine scale): CAC EFFECTIVENESS = (CAC INLET TEMP – CAC OUTLET TEMP) / (CAC INLET TEMP – AMBIENT TEMP)*100. The stock intercooler has an average effectiveness of 88.9%, AFE 96.7%, Banks 93.4% and Spearco 92.1%. The BD was worse than stock at 84.6%.
Density Recovery
This is the measure of improved density and is expressed in comparison to stock. This accounts for both temperature and pressure and is calculated: DENSITY RECOVERY = (AMBIENT PRESS + INTAKE MANIFOLD PRESS) / (AMBIENT PRESS + COMPRESSOR OUTLET PRESS) * (CAC INLET TEMP / CAC OUTLET TEMP). Stock is considered the standard, so the difference compared to stock is evaluated. AFE has 13.7% better density recovery than stock, Banks has +12.7% and Spearco has +7.6%. BD was worse than stock with 4.1% less density recovery.
Cold Side Air Velocity
This is the measurement of air velocity at the face of the intercooler. Lower speed air flow is an indication that the core density might be too great to allow sufficient air flow to the face of the radiator. This can result in engine overheating and if coolant temps reach too high, fuel derating may occur. Stock had an average cold side air velocity of 24.6 MPH (this becomes the standard, 100%). BD had an average air velocity of 23.8 MPH (96.7% of stock), Banks had an average velocity of 22.8 MPH (92.7% of stock). Both Spearco and AFE had significant reduction in air velocity, at 19.2 MPH (78.0%) and 17.3 MPH (70.3%), respectively.
Summary
The purpose behind an intercooler upgrade is to achieve greater air density recovery without compromising other critical functions. BD achieves better flow than stock as indicated by a reasonably low pressure drop and they do not significantly compromise airflow to the radiator. But they miss the mark on temperature reduction and this results in a worse than stock density recovery. Spearco and AFE do a better job of cooling the air and have a decent density recovery, but they both have an internal pressure drop that is closer to stock and they significantly compromise the cooling flow (this is largely due to the bar and plate core design).
I would like to see this test data after hellman modified these intercoolers into a air/water, with welding on his tanks to the air/air intercooler.
There's actually much more to it then just the drop in pressure loss. Obviously it's important to keep your boost loss to a minimum but the temp reduction and density recovery are just as important to the intercoolers performance. You could reduce the pressure drop to almost nothing by simply running a section of pipe directly from the turbo to the manifold (like we do on our drag race applications) but obviously this isn't for a daily driven application. This was written by our engineering department on the testing of the intercoolers we were able to get our hands on:
First of all, consider what the purpose of an intercooler is and why you might upgrade the stock unit. An intercooler (or charge air cooler, CAC) is a density machine. Its job is to increase the density of the intake air charge by cooling it, but it must do so without dramatically impacting the pressure of the intake air charge. Air density measurements take both the temperature and the pressure of the air into account. Specifically, to determine if an intercooler is doing a good job, you must compare the ambient air conditions (temperature and pressure) with the conditions in the intake manifold. Any aftermarket intercooler that is worth its salt should improve the air density over the capability of the stock unit, and this can only be evaluated on a live vehicle with appropriate instrumentation while simulated road circumstances in a controlled manner.
We used a 2006 Dodge Cummins truck (with a 2005 build date) and tested it in a variety of conditions. We ran tests under full load conditions (WOT) on a chassis dynamometer held at 2800 RPM for a minimum of 2 minutes until all temperatures stabilized and then evaluated data from the last 20 seconds of each run. A pair of high-powered fans was used at the front of the vehicle to provide 60 MPH of wind speed (simulating road conditions). Each vehicle condition was repeated a minimum of 3 times to ensure repeatability in the data. Our instrumentation list included: Ambient Temp, CAC Cold Side In Temp, CAC Cold Side Out Temp, CAC Hot Side In Temp, CAC Hot Side Out Temp, EGT, Ambient Pressure, Compressor Outlet Pressure, Intake Manifold Pressure, Fuel Flow, Cold Side Air Velocity, Intake Air Flow and Air Fuel Ratio. Some of these measurements are used to ensure consistency and stability in the tests, but the analysis of this data allows us to evaluate the following:
CAC Delta T Hot- the amount of temperature drop through the intercooler
System Delta P- The amount of pressure drop from the compressor out to the intake manifold
CAC Effectiveness- The ability of the CAC to reduce temperature as compared to abient, expressed as a percentage
Density Recovery- Evaluation of the density of the air compared to ambient considering both temperature and pressure
Cold Side Air Velocity- the speed of the air going through the face of the intercooler (lower speeds indicate more restriction to airflow for the radiator and other heat exchangers)
Testing was conducted over a number of days, however ambient conditions stayed very stable during the testing. Ambient temperature ranged between 84.9 and 91.2, barometric pressure ranged between 28.88 and 29.00 in-hg. The stock configuration was tested at the beginning and the end of the test sequence. Also tested were Spearco, BD, AFE and the Banks Techni-Cooler. Each was tested as they are sold.
CAC Delta T Hot
This is the difference in temperature between the inlet side (coming from the turbo) and outlet side of the intercooler (going to the intake manifold). This is one indicator of how well an intercooler is cooling the air. Stock had an average temperature drop of 289.7 degrees F. AFE had an average drop of 294.0 degrees, 1.5% more temperature drop than stock. Spearco was at 291.7 degrees (0.7% more temp drop), Banks was virtually even with stock with a drop of 289.3 degrees (0.1% difference). BD was 7.2% worse than stock with an average temperature drop of only 268.0 degrees F.
System Delta P
This is the difference in pressure between the turbo compressor outlet and the intake manifold pressure. This evaluates the change in pressure over the entire intercooler and inlet system. The more pressure that is preserved through the system, the higher the density will be. Stock had a pressure drop of 2.96 PSI. The Banks system had the least amount of pressure drop at 1.60 PSI (45.9% less pressure drop than stock). BD was next with 1.94 PSI pressure drop (34.5% less than stock), then Spearco with 2.17 PSI (26.7%) and AFE with 2.18 PSI (26.4%).
CAC Effectiveness (Temperature Reduction)
This is the calculated improvement in temperature in relation to ambient temperature expressed as a percentage. This calculation is performed using absolute temperature values (Rankine scale): CAC EFFECTIVENESS = (CAC INLET TEMP – CAC OUTLET TEMP) / (CAC INLET TEMP – AMBIENT TEMP)*100. The stock intercooler has an average effectiveness of 88.9%, AFE 96.7%, Banks 93.4% and Spearco 92.1%. The BD was worse than stock at 84.6%.
Density Recovery
This is the measure of improved density and is expressed in comparison to stock. This accounts for both temperature and pressure and is calculated: DENSITY RECOVERY = (AMBIENT PRESS + INTAKE MANIFOLD PRESS) / (AMBIENT PRESS + COMPRESSOR OUTLET PRESS) * (CAC INLET TEMP / CAC OUTLET TEMP). Stock is considered the standard, so the difference compared to stock is evaluated. AFE has 13.7% better density recovery than stock, Banks has +12.7% and Spearco has +7.6%. BD was worse than stock with 4.1% less density recovery.
Cold Side Air Velocity
This is the measurement of air velocity at the face of the intercooler. Lower speed air flow is an indication that the core density might be too great to allow sufficient air flow to the face of the radiator. This can result in engine overheating and if coolant temps reach too high, fuel derating may occur. Stock had an average cold side air velocity of 24.6 MPH (this becomes the standard, 100%). BD had an average air velocity of 23.8 MPH (96.7% of stock), Banks had an average velocity of 22.8 MPH (92.7% of stock). Both Spearco and AFE had significant reduction in air velocity, at 19.2 MPH (78.0%) and 17.3 MPH (70.3%), respectively.
Summary
The purpose behind an intercooler upgrade is to achieve greater air density recovery without compromising other critical functions. BD achieves better flow than stock as indicated by a reasonably low pressure drop and they do not significantly compromise airflow to the radiator. But they miss the mark on temperature reduction and this results in a worse than stock density recovery. Spearco and AFE do a better job of cooling the air and have a decent density recovery, but they both have an internal pressure drop that is closer to stock and they significantly compromise the cooling flow (this is largely due to the bar and plate core design).
I would like to see this test data after hellman modified these intercoolers into a air/water, with welding on his tanks to the air/air intercooler.
bmarlatt
Mirrors Down
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 390
I don't even own a truck with a computer and can barely afford to put fuel in them :bang so none of this really matters to me. And I'm not trying to bash anyone, but notice the products are all "soon to be released"? And if they do come out..... cool!
PASSENGER
Bells and Whistles
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2007
- Messages
- 267
So the factory boost control isn't referenced from the intake manifold?
SCHOOL BUS
DLRA T-O
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2007
- Messages
- 10,513
jbarker@banks...
wheres this banks speed line that was supposed to come out in a few weeks?
wheres this banks speed line that was supposed to come out in a few weeks?