Hit the 03/04 HP wall

Dockboy said:
Why should it matter what I have if it's an ECU fueling issue?
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Every setup is different. So, lets say you have twins and twin CP3s. And even bigger injectors. Let's say your truck is also only seeing 68% load. Let's say that means that the FCA's are only at 75% of fully open...Well, in your case, you have TWO CP3's delivering tons of fuel. So even if they aren't running at 100%, you are still ahead of the game.
Its hard to say what it COULD mean...It could mean that your truck MIGHT make 850HP if the ECU was hitting 100% load. Hard to say. Have you datalogged your truck to see what the load% is doing?
 
Hammer said:
Correct me if I am wrong....
But besides Greg,We had 2 other 03-04 trucks goes waaaaayyyyy over that wall you state about at our event......Andy

Tim Barber 944hp
Jim Peter 785hp

On Edit.....
Since I am chatting with Lloyd right now on the phone and was just corrected,Tim's truck has been over 1000 on fuel at our fall show last year and has laid down the same number on Dunbar's dyno also at TS.
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And these guys have single pumps, single turbos and a single programmer (with or without an MP8/Puck)?? I don't think so...
Once again...not saying 650 (or any number for that matter) is a ceiling or anything..we have several 800-1000HP trucks that run on our dyno all the time..I am saying that there appears to be an issue in the 03/04's that effects fueling and may limit a particular setup.
 
Snedge said:
This phenomenon you've mentioned..... I believe we've been calling it torque management for years. The curse of the Cummins ECM. 98.5-2009 "The wall".
Sure would be nice to load one closer to 100%. I agree. Imagine how much better a bone stock engine would run with absolutely no mods?
I think I follow what you are saying. If we had "EFI livish" tuning capability, it would be possible to make more power with less modification.
We have seen one break the rpm barrier, but I never heard if max engine load was increased also.?.
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I suppose I should have titled the thread "Strange Glitch with 03/04 ECUs and Low Load %" and it would have been a less contentious topic.
I have to guess it is a form of Torque Management that is causing it, but changing TM settings in the SMarty certainly doesn't change anything in the ecu readings.
We also don't know yet exactly what is being pulled back. It has to be either FCA command or duration.
EFI Live type control would be outstanding for situations like this.
 
I know I have an 05 and won't really know till I get it back together, but I'm thinking I have a Loading issue as well...My truck just dropped Way to much power in a short time....

For an 05, What scanner do I need to get ahold of to meassure the calculated Load???? When I'm back up and running ??
 
Big Swole said:
I know I have an 05 and won't really know till I get it back together, but I'm thinking I have a Loading issue as well...My truck just dropped Way to much power in a short time....

For an 05, What scanner do I need to get ahold of to meassure the calculated Load???? When I'm back up and running ??
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Swole- i believe you had a rod issue causing your hp drop (before it blew)

we do need an 'efi live' tuner
 
jsf350 said:
Swole- i believe you had a rod issue causing your hp drop (before it blew)

we do need an 'efi live' tuner
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I thought that too until I saw the bearings and damage from the coolant...The other rods look pretty good and straight...

We did find that my convertor seal was jacked a bit....May have been from the broken input a while back but we checked it then and it looked pretty good.....Its just that that would only really affect lockup..The truck still felt slower in fluid drive as well......Tranny and Convertor are getting freshed anyway with some new stuff..

Going back with closer to stock compression this time than I did last time...Maybe dropped a half point or so....


Well see.....I sure hope we are getting something similar to EFI in the future...or what ever will stop these load limiting issues...
 
69percent with smarty and 245percent with tst no wall here 815hp with just smarty and tst nothing else on the dyno still yet to push it harder on dyno have not seen a need yet
 
Heard from some little birdies custom ecm will be avaible soon for any cummins cr motor and not just from bosch lol
 
I was over 1000 Hp with a single silver bullet, DDP injectors, smarty and a dr p box.. dual cp3's
 
Well, the TST works great, BUT it did not change my calculated load %, so that is odd. Power was still in the mid 600's, RP was still great. Back to the drawing board.
On another note, we threw in a big (don't know the size since it is drilled) and ran 831HP on my stock headbolts. Temps at 910 degrees and 47psi of boost. Drove it home...
 
We have been talking about this on my truck and others for a bit. With just the Smarty, the load would be 68% and only make 481. It would overboost and that is the reason for the silly low numbers. Added my EZ to the Smarty and made 653 and 652 back to back. How will a pressure box add 172hp?

I added a TST today and it pegs the EGT gauge, so I will spray water and dyno it this upcoming Saturday.


But this is how Erick Brown explained it to me:

chrleb1 said:
Alright.... I'll get it straight. Without the EZ, the ECM saw an overboost situation and forced it to drop power, that explains the dumb low numbers.

As for the 55% load, the ECM is only seeing 3V at full boost because of the boost fooling. This has been an issue for some 03-04 trucks and this explains why a lot of them need a TST. Something is telling the ECM to not calculate full load which does not give full duration of the tune. So if you toss on a TST, you can lie to the injectors and tell them to have "full" duration because of the multiplication of the TST.

Say at full load the Duration was to be 2,000 microseconds, but at 55% load the duration is only at 1,600 microseconds. What the TST will do is multiply the 1,600 by whatever you select and put the duration where it should be or where you want it to be. Once we put more duration to this thing, it'll definitely pick up more power.
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chrleb1 said:
The ECM takes all the inputs (speed, rpms, boost, rail pressure, and TPS) and makes whats called a calculated load. Now that calculated load is translated into a lot of functions also. It will determine the amount of duration, timing, rail pressure and so on. This is a problem on some 03-04 trucks. Why, i don't know. But with my scan tool, the ECM would only show 55% calcualted load. I'm sure if it were on the street, it would show the same thing.

So what we do now is put a TST on the truck and magnify the ECM output of the duration.

The bigger injector you go, the less this seems to be a problem. On my truck and flux 5s, i still needed the TST on 5x5 to make more power over the Smarty alone. When we swapped in the Flux 7.5s i needed the TST on 2x2. But we took off the TST with the really big injectors and were only 50 hp down. Marco was on track then to push the smarty past the stack of the two and make better power. Unfortunely that is when the crank broke in half. I think there is still much more to learn in these ECMs. There might be some tables somewhere and it is causing the laod to back down.
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:welcome:
 
Smarty/TST/EZ and went out for a ride. EGT's get hot quick, where before it wouldn't get over 1150*'s. TST on level 5 with everything else stock, it peaked at 87 psi and I let off. Turned TST to level 9 and then blew intercooler boot off the turbo side.
 
jlibert said:
both trucks having the calculated load issue are CA 235 trucks.
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Actually 3. Daniel's truck made 405hp with 66, Flux 3.3's, MP-8/Smarty, Springs, Studs, Stage 3 85% pump.

Erick made 650ish.

I made 653hp with Smarty/EZ and 481 with just Smarty.



How is Joe making big numbers? What motor does he have? Also, Terry has a 235 motor, but 07 pistons and 07 head from what I recall. Made 905hp with his setup and 150's.
 
Ok on the dyno I have only ever stacked smarty and tst. Never all three I only use the edge ez on the street for quick clean up of the big sticks. And 815hp on dunbars dyno and 793 at the beginin of the year on another guys dyno and all I did is go up one level of my tst. 4x2. To 5x2
 
We discussed this previously: Here

What I don't get is how on some trucks the addition of a TST changes calculated load, as the TST reinterprets duration after the ECM.

I believe it's an ECM issue as opposed to a smarty issue. Huge injectors (200+horse) make this issue easier to overcome for some reason.
 
fordassassin said:
Actually 3. Daniel's truck made 405hp with 66, Flux 3.3's, MP-8/Smarty, Springs, Studs, Stage 3 85% pump.

Erick made 650ish.

I made 653hp with Smarty/EZ and 481 with just Smarty.



How is Joe making big numbers? What motor does he have? Also, Terry has a 235 motor, but 07 pistons and 07 head from what I recall. Made 905hp with his setup and 150's.
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I'm not making big numbers. I hit 685 once and went to almost double the size injectors and lost hp. I have a few issues I have to take care of and then I will be back after it. This thing is hitting the track next season and needs to be ready.
 
I just did 721 this weekend with smarty on 7 and a dr p box and crappy rp. Tst was on the truck but on 0/0. Lost 30 hp when I went to 2/0 because the rp dove even lower.

That's with SB66/s480, 8x10, and a single dragonslayer.

My rp is always low though as compared to 04.5+ trucks and maybe the miscalculated load % has something to do with it...
 
Mine did 1080 on just the Smarty and EZ, the TST only added 58 hp. The TST is needed on small injectored trucks. The "wall" has been known for a long time and it is just a tuning issue. The point of the TST is to magnify the lower Duration signal from the ECM due to the lower load table.
 
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