Pilot Injection!! Can it be turned off??? Anyone know?

Not an expert by any means, but am in the middle of my own cr build. Comparing what i'm doing verses my brother-in-laws 12v, or more importantly some theory's may still apply. I shaved my pistons .050, which I now am thinking may be to much. Looking at my injector spray pattern on stock pistons, head gasket, block, and head was very high in the bowl. I was running a lot of timing, but you cut the top essently making the bowl shallower, then run a head gasket that is from my reading is thicker than a stock mls and then get a rattle. I don't completly disagree with the injection events, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, but with the piston bowl being that far from the injector now I think you would have to keep the timing at a minimum to allow the piston to come up farther when the injector sprays, so that it doesn't spray outside the bowl. Like having to much timing on a 12v....rattle, plus melted pistons. Sorry for the rambling, just curious if mine is going to rattle also.
 
Big Swole said:
So far, Don's not metioned that as being a possible fix.....

Now that I'm learning more..I don't think it would....It's a decompression thing with the early pilot injection that causing it I think....
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ya but if when you shave your pistons down you actually make the bowl a smaller diameter. It seems to me that if you do that and run the same timing the spray pattern would be a little wide. I would think that if you had a set of injectors that changed the angle to get everything in the bowl would help but I may be wrong
 
I am at 14:1 on my 04.5 with stock mls gasket no head or block decking with flux 3.5 and I get little to no rattle at idle. sounds very smooth to me.
 
I'm in the middle of a top end build(head). Were using a .015 24v gasket due to cooling passages matching up much better. anywho .004 got shaved off the the head so mine is only gonna be slighlty decompressed. Still pry above 17 for compression but I'm not sure. Karl @ Redline is handleing everything for me so I'm not exact on my numbers but he told me he doesnt believe in dropping compression in a commonrail. Which I agree! I'm also goin up in fuel as well. So we'll see how it runs after. Here is a pick of what my pistons looked like
dodgemotorpics007.jpg

dodgemotorpics014.jpg
 
I really don't believe compression has much to do with this problem. My pistons were shaved but, between the decking of the head and block it was taken back to a stock configuration. The only difference from stock would be the larger cylinders

pistons shaved .010
cylinders are .020 over
block and head decked a total of .007
using 4.350 x .105 Fire ring w/ a 24v gasket

Shaving the pistons that much doesn't even get into the bowl. In fact it does even get to the top of the bowl so spray patten shouldn't even play a part. As some may know, I've had this rattle for over 2 years now. I pulled the head and the spray is pretty much where it should be.

There's something else going on and IMO, doesn't have to do with RP and the way it ramps. Depending on the program I have loaded, my RP can go either way... to high or very low. Yes, less RP quiet's it some but isn't the fix. I can make my RP work just as it would on a stock truck but, the rattle is still there. Beside.... when the actual and demanded psi's are in sync... what more can you ask for ?

I've found no damage resulting from this rattle in the top end. The next thing is to take a look at the rod bearing. If excessive wear is seen there.... something definitely needs to be done to fix this issue. If there's no damage seen.... I believe we have to chalk it up to altering the specs of our trucks. 24v sound the way out trucks do but, slightly different. They have a different fuel system and programming from the factory. The pilot injection is suppose to help get rid of that rattle the older trucks had but, because we've added these performance mods... we've made our truck sound like the 24v.

I do hope you find something Swole. It funny that I've had this issue for over 2 years and many, many posts about it with no one having a clue what causes it. Now it seems everyone has the answer. IMO, they're all still guesses as no one is able to actually put a finger on the cause.
 
What is the compressed thickness of an MLS gasket?
Is it more the guys that went to a firering headgasket that get the rattle?
 
not sure of the answer to that but, there's only 2 stock gaskets for the CR. One is thicker than the other. I do know the fire rings have a .058 crush thickness

I have fire rings and Swole has O-rings so no, it's not just fire ringed trucks.
 
triton said:
I really don't believe compression has much to do with this problem. My pistons were shaved but, between the decking of the head and block it was taken back to a stock configuration. The only difference from stock would be the larger cylinders

pistons shaved .010
cylinders are .020 over
block and head decked a total of .007
using 4.350 x .105 Fire ring w/ a 24v gasket

Shaving the pistons that much doesn't even get into the bowl. In fact it does even get to the top of the bowl so spray patten shouldn't even play a part. As some may know, I've had this rattle for over 2 years now. I pulled the head and the spray is pretty much where it should be.

There's something else going on and IMO, doesn't have to do with RP and the way it ramps. Depending on the program I have loaded, my RP can go either way... to high or very low. Yes, less RP quiet's it some but isn't the fix. I can make my RP work just as it would on a stock truck but, the rattle is still there. Beside.... when the actual and demanded psi's are in sync... what more can you ask for ?

I've found no damage resulting from this rattle in the top end. The next thing is to take a look at the rod bearing. If excessive wear is seen there.... something definitely needs to be done to fix this issue. If there's no damage seen.... I believe we have to chalk it up to altering the specs of our trucks. 24v sound the way out trucks do but, slightly different. They have a different fuel system and programming from the factory. The pilot injection is suppose to help get rid of that rattle the older trucks had but, because we've added these performance mods... we've made our truck sound like the 24v.

I do hope you find something Swole. It funny that I've had this issue for over 2 years and many, many posts about it with no one having a clue what causes it. Now it seems everyone has the answer. IMO, they're all still guesses as no one is able to actually put a finger on the cause.
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Ty,

I will have to agree with you on the lower compression, as my 05 have the noise before a built motor.
My rattle seems to follow the pressure and boost to a T, more pressure more rattle.
Rob
 
It's all in the programming. I seem to recall that pressure is what help a DMAX guy with lowered compression fix a bad smokey start up. Naturally EFI truck.

So how do you guys ralley the likes of Smarty or PPE, or Bully dog to fix the problem?

:)
 
I tell you what.... the ONE thing I've never been able to do is " format " my ECM and start over from scratch. Flashing at the dealer isn't what I mean either as that just overwrites the existing programming.

The only way I know of to do this is to purchase a brand new ECM with fresh factory programming. If someone else knows of another way.... I'd love to hear it cause that's the one thing I've yet to be able to eliminate.

IMO, that would show whether programming has anything to do with it.

I do know my wifes truck... a 07 QC 5.9 which is complete stock has the same rattle. It's just no where near as pronounced but, it's there. My wife agrees and she should know.... she's driven in my truck and lives in her.
 
triton said:
I tell you what.... the ONE thing I've never been able to do is " format " my ECM and start over from scratch. Flashing at the dealer isn't what I mean either as that just overwrites the existing programming.

The only way I know of to do this is to purchase a brand new ECM with fresh factory programming. If someone else knows of another way.... I'd love to hear it cause that's the one thing I've yet to be able to eliminate.

IMO, that would show whether programming has anything to do with it.

I do know my wifes truck... a 07 QC 5.9 which is complete stock has the same rattle. It's just no where near as pronounced but, it's there. My wife agrees and she should know.... she's driven in my truck and lives in her.
Click to expand...

I suppose, I would agree with you on the "format" deal. This only is true should the smarty only "program parts" of the ecu and "unprogram" then when you return to stock. This would be true in your book should you go from a BullyDog to a Smarty and the BullyDog never fully returns the truck back, and now the smarty is working with software it wasn't intended to.

But I would imagine the fuel fuel curve is 100% different then stock to the point that what ever your upload with the smarty touches everything related to your knocking. I'm only imagining here. Naturally Marco will never tell us if this is true.
 
smokingoat04 said:
I'm just wondering how mine will sound?
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it seems to be random.... some get it, some don't. Just about every build is slightly different and who know where the difference to have it or not is being made.

I have Extrude hone injectors, others have Don's injectors. I have my head ported, others don't, some have dual CP3's, other don't...etc.
 
triton said:
I tell you what.... the ONE thing I've never been able to do is " format " my ECM and start over from scratch. Flashing at the dealer isn't what I mean either as that just overwrites the existing programming.

The only way I know of to do this is to purchase a brand new ECM with fresh factory programming. If someone else knows of another way.... I'd love to hear it cause that's the one thing I've yet to be able to eliminate.

IMO, that would show whether programming has anything to do with it.

I do know my wifes truck... a 07 QC 5.9 which is complete stock has the same rattle. It's just no where near as pronounced but, it's there. My wife agrees and she should know.... she's driven in my truck and lives in her.
Click to expand...



Ding Ding Ding!!!!!

Ty, you may be on to something...you mention this the other day and I've been thinking...

Didn't you used to use a BullyDog??? So did I!!!
Maybe that has something to do with it!! If it never put it back to stock completely, Then loading the Smarty my have something to do with it!!!

BTW, Your wifes truck is an 07 too right?? DonM told me the the 06-07 trucks seem to rattle more than the 04.5-05's , Even in stock form....So that makes sense!!!
 
triton said:
it seems to be random.... some get it, some don't. Just about every build is slightly different and who know where the difference to have it or not is being made.

I have Extrude hone injectors, others have Don's injectors. I have my head ported, others don't, some have dual CP3's, other don't...etc.
Click to expand...



Yeah!! But How many wit STOCK COMPRESSION ( Non cut pistons or lower'd in another way) Have this loud of a rattle that you and I have!!



I may have to drive my truck to TX or to someothere location for some of these other guys to hear this thing!!
 
JasonCzerak said:
I suppose, I would agree with you on the "format" deal. This only is true should the smarty only "program parts" of the ecu and "unprogram" then when you return to stock. This would be true in your book should you go from a BullyDog to a Smarty and the BullyDog never fully returns the truck back, and now the smarty is working with software it wasn't intended to.

But I would imagine the fuel fuel curve is 100% different then stock to the point that what ever your upload with the smarty touches everything related to your knocking. I'm only imagining here. Naturally Marco will never tell us if this is true.
Click to expand...





Lets take a POLL!!! Anyone that used a BullyDog before the Smarty that has this LOUD a$$ rattle / clatter PLEASE speak up!!!!!!
 
Big Swole said:
Lets take a POLL!!! Anyone that used a BullyDog before the Smarty that has this LOUD a$$ rattle / clatter PLEASE speak up!!!!!!
Click to expand...

This isn't it Swole. I didn't use a BD till about a year after my build. The noise has been there from the beginning like yours. The thing I question is... if someone where to build a truck like ours that has never had any programming other than stock... would it do it ?? Pretty much everyone I've seen make this complaint has already had a programmer installed.

I think it's changing the stock programming period. These programmers may be either leaving residual software or altering something. Many, many Smarty users stock or not complain about the rattle. I'm not blaming the Smarty... only saying that possibly when we load these programs... something happens ??? This is why I want to start over from a clean slate to see what happens.
 
Big Swole said:
Yeah!! But How many wit STOCK COMPRESSION ( Non cut pistons or lower'd in another way) Have this loud of a rattle that you and I have!!

I may have to drive my truck to TX or to someothere location for some of these other guys to hear this thing!!
Click to expand...

Many do as soon as a programmer in put in to alter parameters. Maybe not as loud but, enough to complain.

Driving to TX will just show you the rattle can handle the trip. I've had Dan Scheid, Bo Layne, Garmon and several others in my truck and have talked to many, many others about it. No one has a explanation... only theories.

I do hope to find something but like I said... since there's no top end damage and if there's no damage to my rod bearings.... I'm not gonna sweat it anymore. I've already put too many hours and too much money into getting no where.
 
My truck has the rattle. It was most pronounced about the time the Smarty 4.3 came out . the 4.4 didn't help.
I'm now running TNT r on 7 timing 3.

IMO its to much fuel / not enough air. Incomplete combustion. (Black smoke seems to go hand in hand with the rattle)
I noticed a large reduction ,after I put the cfm intake on.
Also a looser converter made it easier to around it.
. I can make it rattle by getting into the throttle to quickly at low RPMs.
But if I'm diligent in applying the gingerly I don't here it at all.

These CRs seem to enjoy life at a higher rpm . Unlike my old 12 valve.

Flux 3's ,stock head gasket
 
TY, have you ( or anybody else) tried another programmer over the top of the Smarty???? Did you see the same thing???


Per our phone conversation the other day...You know who I had just talked to.....I'm gonna try that programmer / Tune and see if it makes it any better....

I'll let ya know when I get it tested!!
 
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