Swole's Carnage AGAIN!!!!

Man Dave, I don't have the words on this one. I hope all works out and you're back in business for TS this year...I maybe down there a little early this year, planning on be layed off tomorrow..lol.. Thats all you can do sometimes..Good luck buddy..ROB
 
Advanced timing starts the unzipping of the fuel earlier in the cycle. There is an argument to be made that more heat earlier in the cycle can actually be absorbed into the crown through the combustion cycle over a longer period of time. More crank degrees of rotation occur while the fuel is being burned the earlier you start injecting. The crown can absorb more heat into its top per cycle. And it is shed into the jacket water through the cylinder walls and into the oil through cooling ducts in the piston crown with more time elapsing before the exhaust valve opens. This will lower average in-cyliner temps just by clock time alone. This is the common reasoning why you have lower EGT with more timing. More heat into the engine components and less into the exhaust stream.

The 04.5 + engines actually inject the fuel low in the bowl and some of the fuel charge climb the walls. Look at my avatar photo. The thing we cant stop is the large pattern that slams the piston with big injectors. As we make larger holes, crank the injection pressure up and increase the duration of the injection, the result is a large concentration of heat in a short window of time. The counter to this is to slow the combustion process with water injection. Slower heat release rates dont have to mean less power produced. Just look at a 12v p-pump engine with less than 1100 bar injection pressure.


The big injectors have a pattern upon impact with the sight glass larger in size than a quarter on my test bench. This is going land out of the bowl inside the engine to some degree. Although as stated earlier, the fuel burns very quickly in a CR engine. So much is burned long before it reaches the wall once the fire starts.

Timing must be high enough to make power, but not so high you end up with rattles/nailing and too much heat absorption into the internals. It is really a balancing act between all things considered. RPM, injection pressure, injector size and design, etc, etc.

Water will slow the rate of heat release. Tim Barber is a great example of an owner who has never melted an engine. He has both the 03-04 and 04.5 engine types. His engines produce enormous power, but once we got to a power density of 2HP per cubic inch I insisted on water injecting being added. Daily calls and constant digs, even refusal to make larger injectors until we made this change. There are other examples of trucks with water and high power. And there are constant examples of trucks with no water and melted pistons. 200 degrees of EGT drop in a maximum effort engine is a very large number in terms of engine in-cylinder temperatures.
 
Put a Cummins in it! LOL

Sorry David, trying to lighten your spirits. That absolutely blows man. I swear I was sick for the few seconds after reading this. I don't know jack about the Cummins, but if there is anything I can do, let me know.
 
Soup Nazi said:
Advanced timing starts the unzipping of the fuel earlier in the cycle. There is an argument to be made that more heat earlier in the cycle can actually be absorbed into the crown through the combustion cycle over a longer period of time. More crank degrees of rotation occur while the fuel is being burned the earlier you start injecting. The crown can absorb more heat into its top per cycle. And it is shed into the jacket water through the cylinder walls and into the oil through cooling ducts in the piston crown with more time elapsing before the exhaust valve opens. This will lower average in-cyliner temps just by clock time alone. This is the common reasoning why you have lower EGT with more timing. More heat into the engine components and less into the exhaust stream.

The 04.5 + engines actually inject the fuel low in the bowl and some of the fuel charge climb the walls. Look at my avatar photo. The thing we cant stop is the large pattern that slams the piston with big injectors. As we make larger holes, crank the injection pressure up and increase the duration of the injection, the result is a large concentration of heat in a short window of time. The counter to this is to slow the combustion process with water injection. Slower heat release rates dont have to mean less power produced. Just look at a 12v p-pump engine with less than 1100 bar injection pressure.


The big injectors have a pattern upon impact with the sight glass larger in size than a quarter on my test bench. This is going land out of the bowl inside the engine to some degree. Although as stated earlier, the fuel burns very quickly in a CR engine. So much is burned long before it reaches the wall once the fire starts.

Timing must be high enough to make power, but not so high you end up with rattles/nailing and too much heat absorption into the internals. It is really a balancing act between all things considered. RPM, injection pressure, injector size and design, etc, etc.

Water will slow the rate of heat release. Tim Barber is a great example of an owner who has never melted an engine. He has both the 03-04 and 04.5 engine types. His engines produce enormous power, but once we got to a power density of 2HP per cubic inch I insisted on water injecting being added. Daily calls and constant digs, even refusal to make larger injectors until we made this change. There are other examples of trucks with water and high power. And there are constant examples of trucks with no water and melted pistons. 200 degrees of EGT drop in a maximum effort engine is a very large number in terms of engine in-cylinder temperatures.
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Lots of people are over 720whp...... (more then that at the motor)

What size (% over) nozzle should we start to consider smaller copper washers?
 
Two things, long winded as usual. Sorry.

First, Dave I'm so sorry to hear this. One of life's greatest questions certainly applies, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" I hope I can find out someday. If I can do anything, even if its just distract you with jokes or shenanigans please let me know.

That said, allow me to offer another perspective.

Dave, before you get too upset or the rest of you start placing blame on this or that product let's consider a few things. To borrow a line from your profession, "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?" It wouldn't be that much of a fisherman's story to say you were knocking on TENS with this setup. (At the very least, standing on the door step.) TENS! In a gawd damn full weight, quad cab, daily drivable (or driven) street truck.

This board makes us all incredibly jaded. In our growing enthusiast myopia it is often difficult to generate any buzz, props, or accolades unless you post up a four digit dyno, or three digit time slip. However, the fact remains you have accomplished something that is nothing short of amazing. A conservative estimate of 7k weight and your trap puts you around 825 hp for that pass. That isn't a peak number on a dyno, that is an average hp for the duration of a pass. Damn nice, bro.

Though a smaller and smaller percentage can remember, and fractionally more can or care to identify, it wasn't that long ago that trucks running these numbers were exclusive to diesel performance shops with resource and budgets exceeding what most are capable of on an individual basis; and those were track only vehicles. Fast fwd to today where you, on a civil servants compensation (not a dig at all, I just don't know many upstanding officers who make bling-bling balla' bank. LOL) and some help from friends, have exceeded performance reserved for but a few six figure performance cars which tip the scales an less than half your weight.

Pretty damn cool, if you ask me. You should be proud.

But, to expect this to be accomplished repeatedly without casualty or expensive folly is shortsighted at best. I'm not being critical of your frustration at all, and I truly believe your have been smited well beyond the law of averages here. LOL But to put it simply, as hard as you're pushing it was bound to happen. The level of insanity (read: multiplier of performance beyond original design) is directly proportional to the probability of breakage. You're there dude. Its gonna happen more often than any of us would like it to, but its the price of low 11 second full weight daily driven fame.

The road of increased performance with reliability is paved with broken parts. You've definitely paved your share of it for our benefit. My hope is that instead of blaming one manufacturer, component, or tune simply for the sake of assigning blame, that we can use your excessive donation of carnage for analysis and collective benefit as well as your own.
$.02$.02$.02$.02$.02

Let the Comp D family know if there's anything we can do to help.

Recommendation: As many times as you've had to put this thing back together again, what about changing the name from "Interceptor" to Humpty Dumpty?? :hehe:
 
Humpty Dumpty, thats a good one,,

Back to the water thought though, what quantity should a person spray (water) if you are spraying nitrous too? I have never melted a piston yet,, (knock on wood) and I hope not too, but I still want to keep playing the game ( I know its like having your cake and eating it too)
 
I saw this thread and thought it was your last one brought back from the dead. Man do I wish that was the case. Sorry to hear about the issues. Good luck getting it back going again!
 
97crewcab said:
I saw this thread and thought it was your last one brought back from the dead. Man do I wish that was the case. Sorry to hear about the issues. Good luck getting it back going again!
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I thought the same thing. I think you should see about a set of mahle monotherm pistons there Dave. If they truly want to test a set of those steel jokers, give em to you. You'll test em...
 
Amish, your posts are NEVER boring! Thanks for the smile!
 
Wow! David this sucks I really feel for ya. A buddy of mine just called me and asked me if I had seen the post. I hadn't been online yet. This is incredible. I think Ryan Bean hit the nail on the head the culprit is timing and the lack of knowing where we are with it. I have melted my motor twice, once with too much timing the other a hung injector. I believe every truck and every set up is different with stacking boxes and so forth. We know that having enough air is not the problem, you have a ton of air on that truck, it is all about the timing and until we have a way of reading actual timing and controlling it we are going to continue to melt them down. Sorry man let me know if I can help in any way.
Bruce
 
I seriously think that something is wrong with my Smarty program! Not pointing fingures, just saying....Ever since I got the TNTR, it has seemed to be acting like I can't turn the timing down......Even the lowest settings had more RATTLE than the PPE.....
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Wow, Swole, I'm sorry to hear this...props for you tearing into it already and moving forward!

Concerning the timing of the TNT-R, I too have noticed funny things. It seems that even on the default timing, there are places in the maps that have pronounced rattle...enough to hear clearly from the cab. However, it's not at all throttle/speed/load positions. I'm wondering if the maps are a little too course for daily driving? Or if there are a few values somewhere that are off a little?

Smarty has worked great for me, but it's always made me slightly uncomfortable never knowing what is being done with timing. I've said before, and still think it to be true, that a timing guage would be one of the most useful things we could have on these CRs.

I truly wish you the best...your attitude through all this is very commendable and encouraging!!!!

--Eric
 
Sell that thing! Lol It has some evil demons torching on those pistons.

Sorry to hear about this. Hope you get everything up and running again soon.
 
CSnyder said:
Ill do some digging and see what I can help with in case the block is totally swoled.
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I've hear folks in the past mention, "dock-boying" a block.....but I think you may have just "coined" a new phrase.

Sorry David. That really sucks. I wish I had something to help you out, but I don't have anything to offer except condolence. :(
 
Dang David that sucks man. Keep your Chin up! If I can do anything for you just give me a shout!
 
Damn Swole, that sucks, maybe time for a 12v and let that CR pull it. :evil
 
I was down at Garmon's yesterday to shoot some trans tech and saw Swole tear into his engine... He really is a great guy and it sucks to see this happen to a guy like that!!!:rockwoot:

It is awesome to see the diesel community, especially the guys here on compd rally around him to get his rig back on the road again!!!!:clap::woohoo::clap:

I have been around all sorts of groups of people in my life and the diesel guys are really great. I am happy to be part of this group too.

I'm sure somehow and someway Swole will be up at TS with his truck... Looking at the #5 cylinder bore I am hoping that he will be able to sleeve or maybe even just hone the bore to get all the melted aluminum off the cylinder walls. Hopefully the crank is ok too, but the rod is probably a gonner. And maybe, just maybe the top turbo chopped the pieces of aluminum in to fine size peices and the bottom turbo isn't hurt... We can hope cant we?!?!?!:charger:

Get at it Swole and I look forward to giving you your 15-minutes in the future for an accomplishment on the track that does not go on to the wall of shame shelf!!! And you need to buy Jeff another kitchen rack to hold these parts too, don't forget since you took up the last available space on the existing one...:shake::doh::poke:
 
Bad deal man.

If you're worried about timing and want to know what it actually is.... I've got this thing sitting in my office every single day up in Alpharetta.

tektronix_tds1002b.jpg



Maybe one weekend we could scope the CPS or crank trigger vs an injector wire and flesh out the actual timing the engine is running stock vs with whatever tune you want to stick on it.

I would have to know myself. Which is why I have a quick-connector on my truck that rides around on my engine harness permanently for the sole purpose of scoping my timing and injector pulsewidth.

Best of luck man. I'm not too far away if you need something.
 
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