upgraded ecm for the vp's!

ThrottleJockey said:
hahahaaa!!lol

Man I want a redline like this one...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKRKNy8l3hA

The 2.5 TDIs are VP 44s. The 3.0 were common rail. Here is a VP 44 in a Quattro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB6km2fr3xI&NR=1
Click to expand...


Those engines are so much smaller and require so much less fuel to turn those RPM and power, yes, in that application it is possible to turn that many RPM. With the fuel demands a 5.9 is asking of the VP44, you simply are not going to make it happen. You just can't fill the rotor enough to keep it up there, it would be like a single CP3 common rail draining the rail at the end of the track. What happens then? No more power...


VP44's are timed to the engine, CP3's are not. The only way to add another VP is to make the shaft come all the way out the back of the first pump and drive a second pump that way, then run dual-feed JD style injectors. I would say with the right machinist, that would be possible in some way, shape or form, but you are still going to be limited to 4K RPM...
 
bosshogg said:
The only way to add another VP is to make the shaft come all the way out the back of the first pump and drive a second pump that way, then run dual-feed JD style injectors. I would say with the right machinist, that would be possible in some way, shape or form, but you are still going to be limited to 4K RPM...
Click to expand...

Or you can extend the gear case toward the drivers fender and use a crank gear with bearings pressed in to drive them. The lines can be used with either a T-fitting or them both welded together.


Having a board to split the driver signal would be the hardest part.



(yes I have put thought into this, yes I may do it)


You need to remember that CR's are limited to 4k in most cases.
 
bosshogg said:
Those engines are so much smaller and require so much less fuel to turn those RPM and power, yes, in that application it is possible to turn that many RPM. With the fuel demands a 5.9 is asking of the VP44, you simply are not going to make it happen. You just can't fill the rotor enough to keep it up there, it would be like a single CP3 common rail draining the rail at the end of the track. What happens then? No more power...


VP44's are timed to the engine, CP3's are not. The only way to add another VP is to make the shaft come all the way out the back of the first pump and drive a second pump that way, then run dual-feed JD style injectors. I would say with the right machinist, that would be possible in some way, shape or form, but you are still going to be limited to 4K RPM...
Click to expand...

Is this a fact or just your opinion? Let's dump the ECM values first and see if your'e right.
I, for one would LOVE to run the rotor dry of fuel, either due to case limitations or lift pump flow OR excessive RPMs....The ECM is limiting RPMs maybe to protect the pump from exactly what you describe, a pump in stock form with a Carter underneath it.
We're a bit beyond that now....

CP 3s have their own limitations, draining the fuel rail?....
 
roachie said:
Or you can extend the gear case toward the drivers fender and use a crank gear with bearings pressed in to drive them. The lines can be used with either a T-fitting or them both welded together.


Having a board to split the driver signal would be the hardest part.



(yes I have put thought into this, yes I may do it)


You need to remember that CR's are limited to 4k in most cases.
Click to expand...

I thought some pulls have a single pump rule. Is this true?
 
dieselhead117 said:
no need to polish a turd... plus for the money spent on something like this=ppump
Click to expand...

IF it is indeed a turd...That's the problem, we don't know. The babysitter (the ECM) keeps blocking the fun.

Maybe a Monster can put out enough fuel to wind up to 6k....
 
ThrottleJockey said:
Jeez duallyspeed, that would be cool.

Hell, we stack boxes, I wonder if we can stack ECMs, one for 3200 rpm, and the other for fun stuff.............
Click to expand...

In my simple mind going with tricking the ecm is almost better than reinventing the wheel.....but what do i know.
 
Hell, tricking the ecm is all that's ever been done since day 1. False sensor values, skewed map inputs and some input on fuelling and timing, but nothing with actual timing, fuel and rpm control over 4k. It may not even be a perfect system that's needed, maybe something that goes into "race" mode when it sees throttle over say 90% then it gives you the timing and fuel til you decide to shift or blow up.
 
ThrottleJockey said:
Is this a fact or just your opinion? Let's dump the ECM values first and see if your'e right.
I, for one would LOVE to run the rotor dry of fuel, either due to case limitations or lift pump flow OR excessive RPMs....The ECM is limiting RPMs maybe to protect the pump from exactly what you describe, a pump in stock form with a Carter underneath it.
We're a bit beyond that now....

CP 3s have their own limitations, draining the fuel rail?....
Click to expand...

Understand, I'm not knocking the VP totally...I do own one, and happen to like the way it runs. Kinda wish the idle was slower though...just me.

A fellow over on DTR actually got into his ECM a few years back, had quite the thread going about it, even had his own website, which is now defunct, but the thread is still on DTR here. He used a program called Romraider that was popular with the subaru crowd. He had broken into the ECM and custom tuned a couple of them for himself. I tried contacting him through Email a couple times after the threads got shut down over there to no avail. I think the aftermarket pitched a fit when they saw what he was doing and paid the mods to shut the thread down, but I can't be sure.

Jim Jessup in North Vernon, IN does something very similar as far as tuning a 24V goes.
 
crackerman said:
Hell, tricking the ecm is all that's ever been done since day 1. False sensor values, skewed map inputs and some input on fuelling and timing, but nothing with actual timing, fuel and rpm control over 4k. It may not even be a perfect system that's needed, maybe something that goes into "race" mode when it sees throttle over say 90% then it gives you the timing and fuel til you decide to shift or blow up.
Click to expand...

YEAH! Let me worry about the motor! We are trying to compete at a given event with a modified truck and a stock ECM, Lol!
 
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bosshogg said:
Understand, I'm not knocking the VP totally...I do own one, and happen to like the way it runs. Kinda wish the idle was slower though...just me.

A fellow over on DTR actually got into his ECM a few years back, had quite the thread going about it, even had his own website, which is now defunct, but the thread is still on DTR here. He used a program called Romraider that was popular with the subaru crowd. He had broken into the ECM and custom tuned a couple of them for himself. I tried contacting him through Email a couple times after the threads got shut down over there to no avail. I think the aftermarket pitched a fit when they saw what he was doing and paid the mods to shut the thread down, but I can't be sure.

Jim Jessup in North Vernon, IN does something very similar as far as tuning a 24V goes.
Click to expand...

Oh no, I didn't think you were. I like how that brain works. Thanks for the link! Reading it right now! (I will soon master the Multi- Quote button...)
 
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ThrottleJockey said:
Oh no, I didn't think you were. I like how that brain works. Thanks for the link! Reading it right now! (I will soon master the Multi- Quote button...)
Click to expand...

If you did a little more research on VP44 pumps, you would learn that vp44's have an internal circuit board (mini ECM-like board) that limits RPM and solenoid pulse width which controls injection duration.

You wish there was a box that cuts off all communication with ECM so the pump can fuel as hard and high RPM as it wants to: Research the Redline Unlimited RPM box. It cuts off communication with the ECM and lets to pump run on it's own.

Problem is, the pump's internal circuit board still limits RPM and fueling. This is why the most HP gain capable with a "non-wire tap" box is 65-70 HP.

To "bypass" the internal circuit board, years ago the "wire-tap" box was created. The tap takes over control of the solenoid pulse width and essentially lets the injection duration get so long it can actually run the rotor dry. I personally am not 100% certain on how they get more rpm but I believe by controlling the solenoid, they can cause it to fire earlier coupled with the added duration gives a maximum of 4300 rpm.


So if you want a better "ECM" for VP44 powered trucks, you better first develop a better "mini-ecm" circuit board for the VP44 pump, or find a way to remotely control the pump and eliminate the internal circuit board.


Carry-on with the wishful inventive thinking. Maybe someday you'll have enough interested people to start a pool of money large enough to build an entirely new injection pump that vaguely resembles a VP44.
 
Hi, I'm Mike from TD Tuning (The place one of you e-mailed). I came across this while doing some searching for information relating to this ECU. It would seem that this ECU can be read via BDM, but I haven't figured out exactly what BDM head I'd need. I normally just use the regular Bosch head for VAG EDC16 systems but something tells me this one is a bit different. If anyone has an original file from the ECU that would be a great place to start.
 
bosshogg said:
Understand, I'm not knocking the VP totally...I do own one, and happen to like the way it runs. Kinda wish the idle was slower though...just me.

A fellow over on DTR actually got into his ECM a few years back, had quite the thread going about it, even had his own website, which is now defunct, but the thread is still on DTR here. He used a program called Romraider that was popular with the subaru crowd. He had broken into the ECM and custom tuned a couple of them for himself. I tried contacting him through Email a couple times after the threads got shut down over there to no avail. I think the aftermarket pitched a fit when they saw what he was doing and paid the mods to shut the thread down, but I can't be sure.

Jim Jessup in North Vernon, IN does something very similar as far as tuning a 24V goes.
Click to expand...

I doubt it was the mods. He had a thread on TDR about the same thing. I posted a link to it earlier in this thread. For some reason he stopped working on the project, at least in public. But I am sure if something came of it we would have heard about it by now.
 
running the pump dry should be something that could be bench tested by someone who knows what they are doing, then some data could be known as to what rpm with what aftermarket lift pump, etc etc
 
vwmikel said:
Hi, I'm Mike from TD Tuning (The place one of you e-mailed). I came across this while doing some searching for information relating to this ECU. It would seem that this ECU can be read via BDM, but I haven't figured out exactly what BDM head I'd need. I normally just use the regular Bosch head for VAG EDC16 systems but something tells me this one is a bit different. If anyone has an original file from the ECU that would be a great place to start.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike, I'm the guy who has been E mailing you. Look in post #170 at the link to the DTR, (Diesel Truck Resource) thread. All of the links in it are dead but the guy definately speaks your language, I actually read all post by that particular member, his handle is JDonoghue, and I was hoping he could tell you something in the link given to us by Bosshogg.

I have an ECM out of a 2000 Cummins I could send you to hack, I bought it back when my CaTCHER ECM took a dump on me as a spare.

Thanks, man.
Brian.
 
Ecven if the pump ran dry around 4300 rpm on a good day, then timing should still be up there, not pulled back. Even if it is defueled a bit, there is still potential to make power with timing, it may not be as much that high up in the rev range due to camshaft selection and head flow, but it would keep the truck from falling on its face and then recovering out of a bog.

TDtuning, there is an ecu or two available as well as a vp44 pump to examine electronics, and I am sure somebody close to you may even let you borrow a running truck. Even though we may not have an origial file from the truck.
 
Big Blue24 said:
If you did a little more research on VP44 pumps, you would learn that vp44's have an internal circuit board (mini ECM-like board) that limits RPM and solenoid pulse width which controls injection duration.

You wish there was a box that cuts off all communication with ECM so the pump can fuel as hard and high RPM as it wants to: Research the Redline Unlimited RPM box. It cuts off communication with the ECM and lets to pump run on it's own.

Problem is, the pump's internal circuit board still limits RPM and fueling. This is why the most HP gain capable with a "non-wire tap" box is 65-70 HP.

To "bypass" the internal circuit board, years ago the "wire-tap" box was created. The tap takes over control of the solenoid pulse width and essentially lets the injection duration get so long it can actually run the rotor dry. I personally am not 100% certain on how they get more rpm but I believe by controlling the solenoid, they can cause it to fire earlier coupled with the added duration gives a maximum of 4300 rpm.


So if you want a better "ECM" for VP44 powered trucks, you better first develop a better "mini-ecm" circuit board for the VP44 pump, or find a way to remotely control the pump and eliminate the internal circuit board.


Carry-on with the wishful inventive thinking. Maybe someday you'll have enough interested people to start a pool of money large enough to build an entirely new injection pump that vaguely resembles a VP44.
Click to expand...

Like the EDC from an Audi 2.5 TDI V6 VP-44 that cruise around at 4400 rpm and have a 6000 rpm redline. Same VP-44 that won all kinds of European awards for reliability. Go figure.

kazairl said:
I doubt it was the mods. He had a thread on TDR about the same thing. I posted a link to it earlier in this thread. For some reason he stopped working on the project, at least in public. But I am sure if something came of it we would have heard about it by now.
Click to expand...

The Mods on DTR did actually kill one of the guy's threads, I don't remember which one, he had like three that were relevant.

Charger said:
running the pump dry should be something that could be bench tested by someone who knows what they are doing, then some data could be known as to what rpm with what aftermarket lift pump, etc etc
Click to expand...

And do you know who this guy is? Please tell us and I pray he has a puller or Drag racer all set up ready to beta test.
 
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