Borg Warner test the BATMOWHEEL

Sorry for the long wait...

Phi is essentially a measure of volume over time. Since every engine will produce different temperatures and pressures, Phi expresses these variables in relation to one another so a single graph is useful for multiple applications. In other words, it factors out exact temps and pressures.

Understanding phi is not really necessary to use matchbot. The object is to get all of the red dots on one line by adjusting the boost and turbine expansion ratio without it telling you that the match is not possible. Once you've done that then you'll have a realistic approximation of how much boost is achievable with the turbine you've selected.

Matchbot is a great tool and can produce very accurate results, but it can be a tedious process to dial in the match because once you've adjusted one variable another needs to be changed, which then affects another and another...etc, etc.

I hope this helps!

How does one use Matchbot for sizing a turbo in a twins application ?

The mass flow through the turbine is not equal to the engine displacement x PR for the single turbo because a second turbo is adding boost. It seems as though Matchbot needs more parameters, ie boost the turbo under question is making as well as the overall boost going into the engine ??????

Any pointers here would be greatly appreciated.
 
Ah ok thats what i was looking for, so it made 38hp over their own design, thankyou sir.
 
Sorry for the long wait...

Phi is essentially a measure of volume over time. Since every engine will produce different temperatures and pressures, Phi expresses these variables in relation to one another so a single graph is useful for multiple applications. In other words, it factors out exact temps and pressures.

Understanding phi is not really necessary to use matchbot. The object is to get all of the red dots on one line by adjusting the boost and turbine expansion ratio without it telling you that the match is not possible. Once you've done that then you'll have a realistic approximation of how much boost is achievable with the turbine you've selected.

Matchbot is a great tool and can produce very accurate results, but it can be a tedious process to dial in the match because once you've adjusted one variable another needs to be changed, which then affects another and another...etc, etc.

I hope this helps!

I hear what you're saying, and I'm not thowing you under the bus, but volume over time is essentially CFM...which has to be corrected using the gas density to get back to a corrected mass flow. I guess I'm just a lbs/min kind of guy.

Matchbot is fine if you are working only with BW. Many of us, however, would like to be able to compare and contrast BW data with Holset and Garrett. I understand the matching process pretty well....I know what class turbines I am interested in, just would like to know exactly who is making what. It would be really swell if we could get efficiency values for the turbine because that really helps determine turbine power potential.

Regardless, I realized Matchbot does spit out a corrected mass flow, it just doesn't graph it out, but I can handle that. I just have to put some more time into it.

There's a lot to be learned from this thread even if we don't all disagree 100%.
 
I hear what you're saying, and I'm not thowing you under the bus, but volume over time is essentially CFM...which has to be corrected using the gas density to get back to a corrected mass flow. I guess I'm just a lbs/min kind of guy.

Matchbot is fine if you are working only with BW. Many of us, however, would like to be able to compare and contrast BW data with Holset and Garrett. I understand the matching process pretty well....I know what class turbines I am interested in, just would like to know exactly who is making what. It would be really swell if we could get efficiency values for the turbine because that really helps determine turbine power potential.

Regardless, I realized Matchbot does spit out a corrected mass flow, it just doesn't graph it out, but I can handle that. I just have to put some more time into it.

There's a lot to be learned from this thread even if we don't all disagree 100%.

You could copy/paste it into paint, erase the X-axis volumetric flow rate (Q) and replace with density*Q (mfr). Do you know what industry standard density is?


I'd love to see a map with pressure ratios way up to like 6. Cast, batmo, ETR smoke them up to 6 PR and see how efficient each one is. I'm sure tons of sled puller guys would love to know how the wheel does up there.
 
You could copy/paste it into paint, erase the X-axis volumetric flow rate (Q) and replace with density*Q (mfr). Do you know what industry standard density is?


I'd love to see a map with pressure ratios way up to like 6. Cast, batmo, ETR smoke them up to 6 PR and see how efficient each one is. I'm sure tons of sled puller guys would love to know how the wheel does up there.


The best I can tell, each company uses its own density and standard pressures/temps. That being said, they may not be far off from each other, but I'd have to dig deeper into it than I have.

And yes I 100% agree about high PR maps (both Compressor and Turbine) but most OEM engineers would laugh at such a thing....the old "you can't do that" answer. Then you tell them that you only really care about 15 minutes or so of life at WFO and they just look at you funny. There are very few gearheads in these businesses.
 
How does one use Matchbot for sizing a turbo in a twins application ?

The mass flow through the turbine is not equal to the engine displacement x PR for the single turbo because a second turbo is adding boost. It seems as though Matchbot needs more parameters, ie boost the turbo under question is making as well as the overall boost going into the engine ??????

Any pointers here would be greatly appreciated.

I'm assuming that you're talking about compound turbos and not parallel twins. If that is the case then Matchbot can't help you. If you need pointers then a competent performance shop is your best bet.

Sorry that I don't have a better answer.
 
I hear what you're saying, and I'm not thowing you under the bus, but volume over time is essentially CFM...which has to be corrected using the gas density to get back to a corrected mass flow. I guess I'm just a lbs/min kind of guy.

Matchbot is fine if you are working only with BW. Many of us, however, would like to be able to compare and contrast BW data with Holset and Garrett. I understand the matching process pretty well....I know what class turbines I am interested in, just would like to know exactly who is making what. It would be really swell if we could get efficiency values for the turbine because that really helps determine turbine power potential.

Regardless, I realized Matchbot does spit out a corrected mass flow, it just doesn't graph it out, but I can handle that. I just have to put some more time into it.

There's a lot to be learned from this thread even if we don't all disagree 100%.

No offense taken, and to argue the point further would just be splitting hairs. It sounds to me like you're after a universal standard to which all products could be measured and I think we'd all agree that would be a win for the consumer.
 
The best I can tell, each company uses its own density and standard pressures/temps. That being said, they may not be far off from each other, but I'd have to dig deeper into it than I have.

And yes I 100% agree about high PR maps (both Compressor and Turbine) but most OEM engineers would laugh at such a thing....the old "you can't do that" answer. Then you tell them that you only really care about 15 minutes or so of life at WFO and they just look at you funny. There are very few gearheads in these businesses.

Fortunately for us, Seth (the engineer who conducted the comp wheel comparison) is a gearhead. He's a drag racer with a 5.0 mustang. He understands...
 
Fortunately for us, Seth (the engineer who conducted the comp wheel comparison) is a gearhead. He's a drag racer with a 5.0 mustang. He understands...

He speaks the honest truth here.

Seth is 'beyond gearhead' with an impressive twin-EFR-boosted (he can actually switch it from twin-EFR, to single S500SX and back) Fox-body Mustang, and if you haven't seen his fabrication in person, it's truly worthy of the term 'artwork'.

The man has skills.

The entire engineering team at BWTS is absolutely filled with gearheads, and MatchBot is a great example of how they have focused on supporting the performance aftermarket. It isn't 'all things to all people', but having been in the performance turbocharger business full-time for,well, 'a few years', I can say that it's the most advanced single tool for this process I've ever seen or used.

I tell anyone who will listen to just sit, shake hands with it and use it. It's free, and you can goof it up a million ways and just start over. Like anything, it gets easier as you spend time with it, and if you invest in a turbine speed sensor, it gets even easier.

The spark-ignition guys can generate real-time data logs a bit easier, so that's probably one reason why it's caught on more so in that market, but it works just fine with compression-ignition engines too.

As to using it to help match other makes, actually, you can, but only if those other makes prepare and publish compressor and turbine flow maps of their own, which Garrett does. I actually cross-check data from BWTS maps with Garrett maps, and vice versa, every day, because both companies publish real engineering data. Some compressor maps are published in lb/min, some in kg/s, but converting that data is really just simple math, and if you poke around, you'll probably find the same spreadsheet I use to do this. I didn't write it, so I can't take credit for it, but it's very useful.

Don't forget that Garrett has an excellent, albeit 'light' version, available for iPhone and Android, that is actually quite useful.

The one holdout, of course, is Holset, but, if you're a fan of that product, you should get friendly with your local Master Distributor. Those of us who are directly tied to Holset (CTT) can request and provide compressor and turbine maps, although the process is more time consuming. And Holset uses flow factors that are even just a little bit more 'odd' than BWTS and Garrett use. Holset is also a group that is not likely to ever place a focus on the performance aftermarket, which is a shame, given the high quality products that they produce. There are several Distributors who know this product line and it's potential better than I.

The point is, the more trustworthy data you have, the better off you'll be.

In a nutshell, that's really what this thread is all about.
 
He speaks the honest truth here.

Seth is 'beyond gearhead' with an impressive twin-EFR-boosted (he can actually switch it from twin-EFR, to single S500SX and back) Fox-body Mustang, and if you haven't seen his fabrication in person, it's truly worthy of the term 'artwork'.

The man has skills.

The entire engineering team at BWTS is absolutely filled with gearheads, and MatchBot is a great example of how they have focused on supporting the performance aftermarket. It isn't 'all things to all people', but having been in the performance turbocharger business full-time for,well, 'a few years', I can say that it's the most advanced single tool for this process I've ever seen or used.

I tell anyone who will listen to just sit, shake hands with it and use it. It's free, and you can goof it up a million ways and just start over. Like anything, it gets easier as you spend time with it, and if you invest in a turbine speed sensor, it gets even easier.

The spark-ignition guys can generate real-time data logs a bit easier, so that's probably one reason why it's caught on more so in that market, but it works just fine with compression-ignition engines too.

As to using it to help match other makes, actually, you can, but only if those other makes prepare and publish compressor and turbine flow maps of their own, which Garrett does. I actually cross-check data from BWTS maps with Garrett maps, and vice versa, every day, because both companies publish real engineering data. Some compressor maps are published in lb/min, some in kg/s, but converting that data is really just simple math, and if you poke around, you'll probably find the same spreadsheet I use to do this. I didn't write it, so I can't take credit for it, but it's very useful.

Don't forget that Garrett has an excellent, albeit 'light' version, available for iPhone and Android, that is actually quite useful.

The one holdout, of course, is Holset, but, if you're a fan of that product, you should get friendly with your local Master Distributor. Those of us who are directly tied to Holset (CTT) can request and provide compressor and turbine maps, although the process is more time consuming. And Holset uses flow factors that are even just a little bit more 'odd' than BWTS and Garrett use. Holset is also a group that is not likely to ever place a focus on the performance aftermarket, which is a shame, given the high quality products that they produce. There are several Distributors who know this product line and it's potential better than I.

The point is, the more trustworthy data you have, the better off you'll be.

In a nutshell, that's really what this thread is all about.

I agree with all of this. Well said.

BW, your presence here is appreciated, even if this thread had nothing to do with a batmo.

I hope to see more of you BW people around here. I'd love to see you chime in on some of our non BW specific threads, especially on the compound stuff we discuss.

FWIW, I own a S475, yet to be installed.
 
I'm assuming that you're talking about compound turbos and not parallel twins. If that is the case then Matchbot can't help you. If you need pointers then a competent performance shop is your best bet.

Most performance shops aren't versed in turbo math. And they don't have the time.

They have a preferred compound setup they offer, maybe 2 or 3 or them, and the choice to the customer is buy/sell what they offer. If you start talking to them about balanced PRs or something custom, their eyes roll over.

If you are buying a turbo from them to use in a compound setup, you are totally on your own.

Sorry that I don't have a better answer.
Not your fault. It can be done in a spreadsheet, so its not the end of the world.
 
I agree with all of this. Well said.

BW, your presence here is appreciated, even if this thread had nothing to do with a batmo.

I hope to see more of you BW people around here. I'd love to see you chime in on some of our non BW specific threads, especially on the compound stuff we discuss.

FWIW, I own a S475, yet to be installed.

I can 't speak for MFSPTurbo, but my staff and I are happy to answer any questions you might have. If I don't have the answer at least I know where to find it.

Unfortunately, I don't always have time to be online so I'll most likely miss a lot of the discussion, BUT please feel free to send me a message and let me know when you'd like me to chime in.
 
Most performance shops aren't versed in turbo math. And they don't have the time.

They have a preferred compound setup they offer, maybe 2 or 3 or them, and the choice to the customer is buy/sell what they offer. If you start talking to them about balanced PRs or something custom, their eyes roll over.

If you are buying a turbo from them to use in a compound setup, you are totally on your own.

Not your fault. It can be done in a spreadsheet, so its not the end of the world.

Please don't hesitate to ask us for help. Making sure that the customer does it right the first time is really the best marketing tool we have.
 
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Bruce Block has done pretty darn well with the batmo s475, and the 3 he used before the one he has now.

No failures
Back to back dyno proven power increase
10.0 on bottle 10.4 off bottle

Not trying to stir the pot, and here come all the dyno haters but I'm just stating some things I saw. Im going to give my batmo s472 a whirl and see how she does!
 
im not saying i believe or dis-believe it the Bat-mo-wheel, but a local (semi) truck puller uses them on all there trucks and im not awair of any failures. they also have one on an over the road truck with over 1 million miles on the bat-mo-wheel
 
im not saying i believe or dis-believe it the Bat-mo-wheel, but a local (semi) truck puller uses them on all there trucks and im not awair of any failures. they also have one on an over the road truck with over 1 million miles on the bat-mo-wheel

A million miles since the bats came out around 1.5 years ago? doesn't sound right to me
 
Please don't hesitate to ask us for help. Making sure that the customer does it right the first time is really the best marketing tool we have.

Hearing something like this always makes me want to choose that company over its competitors hands down regardless of price. Because when you get in a rut and can't figure it out they will help. I had ran into the issue before with another company's product and didn't receive one bit of care in the world from them.

It is amazing to see there are still places out there that care :thankyou2:
 
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