Helix 2 vs MaxSpool? Opinions

Thought I'd update a bit too...since I told Brett I'd have some data for him later on;)

I'll be doing a lot of upgrades at once, so the data on the cam itself won't be possible due to time constraints...but you'll see a post on the difference in my stock setup vs. Helix 2, ported head, Cool twist IC, and hopefully a pump that works right!

BTW, I'm officially cash poor:D
Chris
 
and wideglide it can be answered by somehting other than an opinion. i was asking people that are running the two different cams. say you for instance, do you have either of them??? how many miles do you have on it?? would you be giving me your opinion on the miles you've drivin on it???? or would you give me the actual number???

read what i wrote a little closer. cause i distinctly remember reading where soup had posted one of his was rollin over i believe 60k after someone else had tore it up. that means that cam has went approx 60k miles. did he give an opinion???? no. then he stated his opinion by saying he believed it would roll 100k.
 
Pack Mule said:
cause it doens't matter what you think of your stuff. which of these cams could i purchase and not have to worry about having to change it for a couple hundred thousand miles???
Click to expand...

Re-reading and re-reading, I still see an opinion answer coming.. Soup stated what his has done so far, we'll call that fact.. Asking which cam could go 200k, all you will get is opinion until someone who's running one for 200k shows up..

As for mine, I've only got about 7k on my rebuild (with Gregs cam), and so far no issues. Does that mean I can say mine will last 200k? Nope.. I would expect it too, but who knows.. Your asking for subjective answers, but stating that you don't want subjective answers.. If one of these guys puts a truck on rollers and hooks it to a tanker and lets it run 200k miles with thier cam in it, there would be some "proof" to longevety.. Simply asking whick one will last longer is rediculas. Many variables attribute to the life or death of parts in our engines. If you never change your oil, your life will be shorter. If you float valves, smack a piston and break the cam, which is more likely to be blamed??
Run what your budget allows. I never stated Gregs cam was better, or Soups cam was ****, I have a personality conflict with Soup but have no direct experience with his parts. I do have personal experience with Greg and feel that if need be I would get good customer support. I don't feel I would get the same from Soup. For me it was a factor when buying something I knew nothing about, for a project that I had $7k invested in.. Everyone has thier own criteria, I prefer to give my $$ to people that aren't afraid to answer my questions and provide some guidance.

$.02

Brad
 
Last edited:
I actually googled another issue with my truck and stumbled across this thread.

I run Don's H2. To date, no issues. I guess that's no surprise as that's the way it shoud be.

This is my second cam. Don wanted my first cam back to inspect it after some miles to confirm if any wear was taking place. upon my inspection, the cam appeared to be perfect and was within the same specs I originally noted upon install. That cam went back to Don and I ended up helping install it in a buddy's rig that has logged more trouble free miles. So, it's got about 60K on it.

On my current cam, it's been another 30K roughly. Still ticking along.

I am not saying Comps stuff is bad or not. I have never run it and won't. It's as simple as the word "regrind".

My concern with reducing the based circle is not weakness. But, the cutting into the hardness of the cam. Even with rehardening, it rarely matches from base circle to lobe peak. This can lead to hot spots and failure at the ramp. Also, base valve geometry is changed. Yes, a longer pushrod can be used to restore the factory zero lash height, it runs the tappet at a lower level in the bore. This exerts much more force on the tappet and the bore. So, a longer/ heavier tappet is the only real cure.

I see many people talk about using the stock springs with the other cam. be my guest. Shimming a stock spring to control the valve or using a weak spring with an aggressive lobe on the backside will result in destroyed valve seats. Simple valve bounce from a lack of control follows. So, add stiffer springs right? I mean, you need to control the extra weight of the longer pushrods. Well, that means more seat and open pressure. And if you think about the harness of the reground cam, it's a recipe for disaster.

I don't think most guys need to worry about breaking a cam. P Pumps, okay, but the VP guys seem to do okay. Personally, I was worried about wearing a lobe.

There were some pics posted somewhere and to my fuzzy eyes, it looked to be caused by oil starvation. If the motor got too hot or was in fact a cracked block, it can distort enough under load to cause cam bearing journal alignment issues and this is enough to affect the oiling system. I can't say that's what heppened here, but I have seen similar results in other engines.

So, while I use Don's products, I am not saying don't use someone elses. I would just advise looking at the entire system and not the most talked about component.

Any idiot can grind a cam. I can get you one this week. Want more lift? more duration? Change the LSA, mod the area under the curve? OK. I will garantee it won't work like you want it to. And that's simply because it will be reground and the entire grind will be dependant on the original specs of the cam. You can only change so much from an existing part.

This is in no way a dig on Greg or anyone else. Just my opinions based on experience.
 
Fishin2Deep4U said:
My concern with reducing the based circle is not weakness. But, the cutting into the hardness of the cam. Even with rehardening, it rarely matches from base circle to lobe peak. This can lead to hot spots and failure at the ramp. Also, base valve geometry is changed. Yes, a longer pushrod can be used to restore the factory zero lash height, it runs the tappet at a lower level in the bore. This exerts much more force on the tappet and the bore. So, a longer/ heavier tappet is the only real cure. .
Click to expand...


Kind of an interesting first post.

I thought I might clear up your total misunderstanding of how a cam is ground, and then reground. First a stock Cummins cam UGL is heat treated to a depth that allows any possible grind to be place on that core. If you grind a small amount off the back side of the lobe, this making a small lift cam and then later on you decide to grind more off the same lobe to achieve a bigger lobe lift cam, whether you do it while its still in the grinder or you run the cam for a 100,000 miles in a truck the resultant shape, and dimension of the cam will be exactly the same. The hardness is determined at heat treat as a UGL; there is no heat treat operation after grinding, no cam is heat treated after this operation.

Second there is no magical way to achieve more lobe lift with anyone’s cam other then a smaller base circle, allowing the lifter to drop farther in to the hole. So if the lobe lift is close to the same, and it is then the lifter is exactly the same. To put this in perspective on really big cams meaning .375 lobe lift, everyone still uses the same lifter. On These street cams we are speaking about, everyone’s lobe lift is .310 or less.


So if one cam needs some special lifter then why would not all. The answer is the Cummins lifter is a amazing part , it has a 1.500 diameter head , combine this with a 55 mm cam , makes for a very stable cam profile , that some 10,000 rpm small block would die for. This from profiles that at their largest are only .375 lobe lift.
 
You are making the assumption that all cams are starting out with the same peak lift values. I have no idea when Don gets his cams if they have a greater height as a blank, but I know my test cams for the car are built that way.

So, while you are correct, if you start out with the same peak height, then you must grind the same amount off the base circle to get the same lift. What I am saying is, I am not sure what Don uses for blanks. Maybe he can get materials you cannot. I dunno.

I don't think I would compare anything in these motors to a SBC. We tried a custom grind in the Pontiac that had a bit smaller base circle. We ended up cracking 5 of the bores due to sideloading and lift. The problem was fixed by increasing the base circle at the same lift and adjusting the top end installed height. No other changes were made to the lift profile.

I am not arguing the point with you. But, applications vary. And I am aware of your past and racing and so on. I respect your opinion.

If I understand you correctly, grinding the base circle does not affect the thickness of the hardening or possibly gets through it? Let me put it another way. Why do reground cams have a higher lobe failure rate than those that come from new blanks? What is done to the lobe profile to protect the valvetrain? This includes the valve, seats and springs. On most reground cams, there is a sharp definition of lift that does not appear in most of the new blanks. Are these loads acceptable? What is speed of the tappet in a reground cam vs a new blank? Can the area under the curve be controlled with spring tension? Or does it need a softer seat pressure and a progressive rate increase and is the spring strong enough to stop the momentum of the valve train?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions with regrinds. I do know with the cut from new blank I used. I have a created a complete spec sheet installed in my motor.

Again, not saying anyone is right or wrong. I am just offering my 2 cents based on what I have run into.

Dave
 
Only the F-1 cams will allow you to run a 12v lift pump on a 24v thus solving the fuel system issues. I bought the helix 2 for the fuel system option after putting lift pump #4 on the my truck :banghead:

I know, I mentioned the lift pump a dozen pages ago, but I'm just pointing out that there other issues besides the reliability being discussed.
 
Ph4tty said:
Only the F-1 cams will allow you to run a 12v lift pump on a 24v thus solving the fuel system issues. I bought the helix 2 for the fuel system option after putting lift pump #4 on the my truck :banghead:

I know, I mentioned the lift pump a dozen pages ago, but I'm just pointing out that there other issues besides the reliability being discussed.
Click to expand...


Oddly enough, that was my original motivation as well. No more lift pump issues after many failed stockers.

Dave
 
Hi Fish,

Good to see you here. BTW, wear a hardhat here, some of these clowns are downright mean. LOL

I dug around and found the photos of your first press-on Helix cam. The photos are dated June 06, but I thought you changed the cam before that. Plus I was moving around that time and cant seem to imagine having the time toi take any pics.

Anyway, here are the photos Man:
 

Attachments

  • davescam.jpg
    davescam.jpg
    79.7 KB · Views: 93
  • davescam2.jpg
    davescam2.jpg
    83 KB · Views: 93
i see your point wideglide on how it could be opinion. so i'm gonna take it as there isn't anyone that has high miles on either of these cams?? that's what i'd like to know. also it would probablly be a good idea to get springs i'd think regardless of what cam you get, wouldn't it???
 
Pack Mule said:
also it would probablly be a good idea to get springs i'd think regardless of what cam you get, wouldn't it???
Click to expand...


IMO that also depends. If the ramp profile is to aggressive, springs can make things worse. You control the bounce, but add so much seat pressure, the base of the lobe takes a beating and then you begin to shear the oil on the face of the lobe and the tappet. And since the pressure is rising rate, you can kill the top of the lobe quickly.

I can see how many that do regrinds do not want to address LSA or duration at a specific lift. This is due to having a lobe in a factory location. It can only be moved so much without cutting the base cirlce even further.

And even then, the closing profiles are usually way too aggressive. Even with the wide foot tappets our engines have.

Since I have not held one of the maxspool cams, I cannot comment on my opinion of that specific profile. But, some other regrinds I have seen are downright scary.

So, springs should be matched to the profile of the cam and the rpm the truck will be used for. Things like nitrous also weigh into the factoring game. Even dynamic compression ratio should be considered for the springs. Although it plays little difference in the rest of the setup. Te spring should only be stiff enough to control the valve at all heights. The more seat pressure you add when not needed just accelerates wear.

IMO if you can run a stock spring after a cam change, you are not changing the profile much if at all. If you are only adding a little lift, why bother?

Again, just my opinions.

Dave
 
that's very helpful. i do plan to fog the motor for drag racing but that'll come after the studs and a larger charger. well mot much larger but more of a quickspool. i'm tryin to find a silver bullet.

also, is a cam really worth the money???? i'm turnin 4100rpm and i'd like to have the cam to make power up there and i know i'm most likely floating valves. i try not to go past 3700 though and i truck pull more than anything.

so what helpful tips could i get from ANYONE to make more power on the big end?? thanks.
 
I don't turn the rpm you are, mine is a work truck, but to my untrained butt-dyno, I don't see a difference since changing the cam.. I also bought a new head, and now have some new injectors that all play into the mix, but when it was on the same injectors as pre-detonation I couldn't tell...
Mileage is the same as before as well.. When I upgrade the HX40 to something a little better flowing I'm told the cam will keep things cooler and breath better.. Turbo seems to be holding me back for now.

Brad
 
i've got a sledpuller 66, it's a little doggy but not real bad. you can sure hear that sucker screaming from 2200 to 3700 though. and it pulls hard. i've already got sticks and will have a stg2 from floorit friday. hopefully that'll make it light sooner.
 
The only quantifiable information I have regarding before/after for the Helix 2 are two things.

One, the '04.5 took a 221 mile route to get here. Once here, we installed the H2 cam and *gasp* a Bank$ high ram + CAC (Don't worry, we ground off the Banks logo and powder coated it black :hehe:). The truck drove the 221 miles back. On the way back the truck picked up 2.25 MPG, hand calculated. (Greencastle, IN to Hilliard, OH)

Two, the same truck (stock turbo) with the cam added would rev to 3500 rpm and make 8-9psi of boost in the driveway, sitting still. With his twins setup the same truck doesn't make any boost due to the bigger ex housing on the SPS62/B2 combo.

I'm curious- Has the original poster made a decision?
 
If I nail mine in neutral, it will run up to 3500 or so, an build about 20-25psi before I get scared and let out of it.. About 4-5 seconds..
Didn't try this before the cam so can't tell you what it did then..
 
When I rev mine in neutral it goes to 4000rpms. Stock cam. I can rev it in park to 4000rpms. CR by the way. $.02
 
I worded that wrong. "Two, the same truck (stock turbo) with the cam added would rev to 3500 rpm and make 8-9psi of boost in the driveway, sitting still."

That should say "Two, the same truck (stock turbo) with the cam added when rev'ed to 3500 rpm would make 8-9psi of boost in the driveway, sitting still."

I don't know what the total RPM limit was or what it was set to. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Ridemywideglide said:
I don't turn the rpm you are, mine is a work truck, but to my untrained butt-dyno, I don't see a difference since changing the cam.. I also bought a new head, and now have some new injectors that all play into the mix, but when it was on the same injectors as pre-detonation I couldn't tell...
Mileage is the same as before as well.. When I upgrade the HX40 to something a little better flowing I'm told the cam will keep things cooler and breath better.. Turbo seems to be holding me back for now.

Brad
Click to expand...

No drop in egts? No incease in turbo whistling? Any reason you decided to do the cam and head instead of a turbo?
 
Ph4tty said:
No drop in egts? No incease in turbo whistling? Any reason you decided to do the cam and head instead of a turbo?
Click to expand...

Sadly it's not just that simple in my situation.. There probably was a drop in EGT's that I can contribute to the cam, BUT, I did Smokem's spring mod, made some pump adjustments when it was off, etc... so I can't just say the cam did it..

I decided on the cam and head because my head was cracked in every cylinder between the valves.. Prior owner rode hard and put away wet. This led to complete overhaul. Since it was open, cam seemed like a smart choice, and obviously a head was required.. lol..
If not for rebuilding, I would have went with a turbo, but that will come soon enough. Hopefully a very LOUD and quick one. :rockwoot:

Brad
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top