How does the 181/210 compare?

Hamilton Cams said:
. When the oils had more zinc I rarely saw any flaking on the nose of cams. Lately, with the low zinc oils I have even seen the wider 24v cams flaking once in a while.
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All Cams including Factory? Yours also? Just H-2's?

Also, as mentioned above, does the 250 hp difference at 2500 rpm make sense to you?
Were you saying the S366 was not fully spooled at 2500 rpm with the H-2?

RJ
 
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Yes the 250 hp does make sense to me, look at the Dyno Graph. It is a laggy turbo so any difference in bottom end spool shows up big. If one cam spools a turbo before another cam it is more or less a turbocharged engine vs. a Naturally aspirated engine until the other one lights. It is not trickery, it is better bottom end with no ding in the torque efficiency dept.

As far as oils, and to be completely fair to Don, All cams are affected, but for different reasons. In the past we have used wider lobes.875-.900" than the Marine cam Don uses for the H2 .717-.725". Because of the narrow lobe the H2 has to use slow easy ramps and lower lift to stay alive. The old cores the 181/210 used were .875"-900" wide. This allows us to use much higher acceleration rates and higher lift. This makes more power with a better bottom end but it accelerates the valvetrain much harder. This dictates more spring pressure and the need for an even wider lobe. With the lower zinc oils there is less surface tension in the oils. Any flat tappet cam is especially vulnerable, the narrower the lobe the more vulnerable. The narrow lobe has painted the H2 into the low hp corner. Without an additive package, hp is going to be dictated by lobe width in the future. BTW look what is starting to happen to factory rocker arm pivots with the current low zinc oils. In the past it was not that big of an issue. Here is what the OEM's have done to lobe width.
1st gen 12v.725"-.750"
2nd gen12v about.700"
H2 .717-.725"
24v and cr .900"-.950"
HD old core .875"-.900"
HD new core 1.040"
6.7l 1.100-1.150"

On the narrow lobes and slow ramp rates, here it is from the horses mouth.
Soup Nazi said:
The wider lobe is not needed with the Helix 2 grind.

Longer duration allows a slower lift on the lobe compared to stock. The wider lobe also slows tappet rotation which adds to higher wear on regrind cams. Rotating the tappets ( called sliding tappets also ) are key to slower wear.

The Helix is harder at the lobe as well. The lighter overall rotating mass/weight helps avoid breakage under heavy loads. Simply less mass.

When the molds are produced, we can make them any configuration we like. Wider, not as wide, etc. A larger diameter, etc. The Helix is made this way by design.

The only load we dont like on the Helix cast cams is a 13mm inline P pump. Actually it is not the load to turn the P pump, but the unloading and shock that can oocur if a driveline piece breaks and the load is removed quickly.

The Helix lobes are the same width as the 12V cam, but not as wide as the 24 and CR. Some discussion has occured on paying for another mold, but this has not been needed. Our wear rates are the lowest we have seen on any of the cams available.
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BTW I can buy the same marine cam as the H2 for $59 a pop and then be able to compete with Don on price, but they could not handle the agressive ramp rates or the spring pressure. I passed on the 12v cam cores from Engine Power Components that Greg recently aquired. Narrower lobes and thinner cores aren't the way to keep a cam alive! We have a MUCH higher cost per cam than other companies, much higher research and developement costs and somehow our prices are similar. Someone has gotten rich off of joe public all while providing sub-par cams.

Zach
 
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originally posted by soup Nazi
The Helix is harder at the lobe as well. The lighter overall rotating mass/weight helps avoid breakage under heavy loads. Simply less mass.

When the molds are produced, we can make them any configuration we like. Wider, not as wide, etc. A larger diameter, etc. The Helix is made this way by design.

Just a couple of things I just thought of.

If less mass means less breakage then a sherman tank should be very vulnerable, we should make our block castings lighter, our wrist pins should be made from paperclips, the H2 should handle a 13mm p-pump, and Manny Pachiaou should be able to kill Mike Tyson.

As far as the lobes being any width they want, you have to be crazy to choose a narrow lobe when all of the oems are going wider. This is ignoring basic physics. Factory cams are now OVER DOUBLE the width of an h2. I think the narrow lobe was chosen because it maximized profits not tappet rotation. Can you imagine a $59 cam going for almost a $1000 a few years ago. Somebody has a good retirement fund going. And the funny part is that everybody defends the ignorance, the low performance and , the unrealistic cost/profit margins. Wow!
 
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Zach….if you don’t have any hatters than you ant doing something right. Major props to you.
 
Did you meet my hatter? BTW congrats on the pending big day! You going to T.S. or are you going to go through with it?

Zach
 
Hush, I paid $900 for my H2junk.


Ill be calling you for a billet in a few months.
 
roachie said:
Hush, I paid $900 for my H2junk.


Ill be calling you for a billet in a few months.
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Me too. I wouldnt call it junk as it seems to have performed well in my truck, and the motor runs smooth as silk, but data like this makes me feel a little less confident in it.

Props to you Zach for actually posting some real DATA.
 
To be completely fair with Don it is not a complete sham. Forget about Don's crazy profit margains and the crap your wife would have spent the money on had you not bought the cam. I have heard numerous people say it made a difference. Things evolve and people improve things. It has to provide some kind of improvement over factory right? Why the heck would he change something that is selling well and that is not questioned? You see, competition forces major improvements in design and cost. You win! (unless you are reading this Don)

Has anybody done any stock to H2 dyno comparisons? In the search for real results I look forward to anybody that has some real before and after dyno graphs.

I know I get flustered and make it a personal grudge sometimes, but the reality is that we are after REAL FACTS and REAL DATA not real b.s. that is how it was done in the past. I apologize to all of you if I take this a little too personal. I work hard to make a good product and don't take the trash talk too well. Especially when it is founded in the never-never land engineering school and brought to you by _______'s little helpers. You know the game. The sad thing is that a lot of the feedback you see on here is propagated by the need for $. Instead of someone saying their turbo spools a little better(reality) with no additional sales, you get "it spools like mad" with more internet sales. Who wouldn't fudge a little on comparisons , right?

Hold me to a higher standard, ask questions, critique my data, question my results. I expect the consumer be informed. Know you have the best for your application!

For all of you that have already purchased an H2, I will try to come up with a way to offset some of the cost. At least $59 of it anyway.

Zach Hamilton
 
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Thanks for the back to back testing. Dont see too much of it for some reason.
 
Hamilton Cams said:
...Hold me to a higher standard, ask questions, critique my data, question my results. Zach Hamilton
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As one who had very few choices, back in 02, when looking for a tranny rebuild, it's great to see more players in the "Cam Game".
Being one who is far from expert on cams, I hesitate to comment/question.
But since you offer....
Certainly seems possible to increase torque greatly by opening exhaust valves later, but what about the downside to this?
Doesn't it produce much higher TIP (drive pressures) and higher EGT's? Is this advisable with already heavily overfueled engines?

Any concern with your cam regarding thermal overload to parts, thereby sacrificing durability; specifically pistons, but exhaust tract in general?
Like many, I plays hard part time, but uses my truck full time. I wonder if your 181/210 cam may be too aggressive for some of us?

RJ
 
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Rj,
I wrote a bunch on when to open the exhaust and why. If you want the in depth answer ,look up cam change benefits, i believe it is on page 7 or 8.

In short, the sooner you open the exhaust valves the sooner you release pressure out of the cylinder, drive pressures go up and egt in the manifold goes up.

When you open it slightly later, you effectively lengthen the stroke of the engine, increase torque efficiency, release more of the energy to the piston, and lower drive pressures. Your exh. cools more because it has released more energy in the combustion chamber not in the exhaust manifold where others want it released to spool the charger. "thumping the charger" is what some cam grinders call it. An easy way to hear a large duration exhaust is to listen for a ratty exhaust note before the engine wastegates.

Cylinder pressure and what to do with it is the main debate here. I have a chart that describes cylinder pressure vs. crank angle for common engines. I will try to find it and show how when you open the exh valve earlier than X, it siphons off a lot of energy from the tires.

As far as downsides, if you open it later. You will experience slightly slower spool if that is all that you do. However due to other areas of the cam we have gotten most of the spoolup back. I would say we spool 90% as well as someone heavily dipping into the cylinder pressure to light the chargers.

Does this answer your question Rj?

Zach
 
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Zach,
I think your next comparison should be on valve springs, and it is just convenient that I have your cam but no springs. I know my valves are floating at high RPM and it has to be costing me some horsepower.

So I volunteer my truck to test some springs on:Cheer:
 
wow zach! you weren't kidding about this thread on the phone today...i'll be in touch in a couple weeks you can count on that.
 
Hamilton Cams said:
I have been asked quite a few times how does our cam compare to the competitions cam. I have never done any dyno test back to back with competitors cams and mine. I have always just focused on our cams not what others were doing. In the past I have called out a few individuals that have made some very negative comments about our products but I have never known why they wouldn't just do a dyno run against my cam. Today I found out why. I needed some data for an article that was being written. I asked a few cam manufacturers to join in and maybe get some free press, none wanted in. I asked Aturo Ruiz of Buda, Texas if he would allow me to install a few cams in his truck for testing. He was very gracious in allowing me to have his truck for two days. We did 6-8 runs with each cam and picked the highest of each day for the comparrisons. NOTHING else was changed the weather was the same, same driver, same smarty levels. Some people talk about certain brands making more power than another cam, but I have never seen two cams run back to back on the same truck. I was fair and impartial on all things. For all of the people that want to call b.s. All of you get together and schedule a day when you want to dyno the truck come down and watch the runs yourselves. I will even let you put the cams in. Same deal I offered Greg.


the setup
h2, .010 lash int., .020" lash exh. installed straight up with supplied key
181/210 lash int .010", lash exh. .015" installed straight up
truck 2006 2500 4wd
turbo s366 with 1.1 A/R, external 38mm gate
Injectors 120 hp I believe
110# springs
Hamilton pushrods
ZZ head
smarty tnt
ts pressure box

On the first runs the the t.s. was at 25% the 181/210 peaked at 23hp more than the H2, and 167 moreft.lbs. But at 2500rpm the 181/210 made an additional 225 hp and 500ftlbs more due to the much earlier spoolup.

On the second set of runs the T.S. was set at 50%. With the H2 the truck lost 4and dropped to 676hp. The 181/210 picked up 28hp to make 731hp

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/zacheryhamilton/Scan_Pic0002.jpg
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"The pen (keyboard) is a powerful tool and ambiguous data will mold the inference of the un-educated reader"

Judging by the accumulated cores, I can see your concern. Like I said in the past "All of us have to suffer while you go through your learning curve" Do you ever proof read your dissertation? You need to send it to Geoff before publishing if your going to distribute his cams. Here's a little history: around 11 years ago a Dsl Shop in Surrey, BC worked w/ Geoff developing diesel cams. Many of these cams were sold in the US. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago I know of a little Texas kid that carried the Helix cams and spoke highly of them as well as CAMS provided by Colt. There's a reason why your cams serial number starts w/a "C." So, I don't think your masterful engine, high horse power or blistering quarter mile times had a lot to do w/ the development of Geoff's cams. Now, after reviewing statements like "lengthen the stroke" boy, when I want to change the stroke of a motor I slide back the AFC housing (facetiously stated) Or impartial w/different lashes during testing? You're focused on the numbers game, lift, duration, lobe centers, Jack's magic bean Bull****. YOU HAVE NO practical application experience and won't for a few years. I thought we built the cam around the engine, like something the motor can live with. You need to focus on the Cam's "Environment" - is it for racing, Dyno queen, pulling, general street use, do we have emission testing? What's the Engine comp. ratio, porting, injection, twins /single, exh/induce wheels, mileage etc...... WTF!!!!!!!!! I thought your winterization sessions facilitates cell activity, right? Since you seem to redundantly express your intellect, have you given thought to educating the readers as to what cams do? A couple of weeks ago, I sold a little cam to a customer that lives in Kennedy, Tx. The guy's 07 CR previously ran mid 14's, Now, I don't know what his total HP is and at this time and I really don't care. But, LAST Wednesday night, at some drag strip in TX, he ran a 13.2 plus picked up 3 mph in the 1/8th and a couple over all (home work?) Needles to say he was happy. I believe he came to me from word of mouth. So, I think the avenue you choose to exercise your marketing Visibility is wrong.

I personally don't know Don, and the only internet exchanges I've had with him was festered from drag racing competitions a few years ago when I raced allot. However, after conversing w/several diesel vendors we reached a consensus that you excel in masquerading bricks of bias BS. Just a closing note; I have three big sticks (cores) plus that infamous Truck (a by product of your mechanical dexterity) I can easily throw your biggest cam into that truck add a select key and my special lash (LOL, since you went the wrong way on your exh lobe) bench mark, then put my smallest cam in and run circles around those dyno produced numbers, plus eat it's lunch all day long up and down that old track. But I'm a classy guy. I'm going to pray and ask God to bless you w/ the same components the scarecrow received from that wizard dude….. :doh:

 
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