Pilot Injection!! Can it be turned off??? Anyone know?

the one thing you have going for you Dave is time. When I started on this.... no one had a clue where to look. I did a lot of the leg work myself and you know where I'm at with it. My responses to you are only to maybe save you time, money and/or effort not to be a nay sayer. More power to you for checking all the avenues yourself though.

The few I know that have a direct ear to Bosch are Scheid and II, I'm sure there may be others. IMO, that's where to go. If the right person could be talked to at Bosch, we could ask all these questions. Especially about the pilot injection and what happens by eliminating it.

I'm definitely no expert but getting close on the 5.9 anyway with all this. I would be willing to bet I've gone through more areas/systems of the truck looking for it than anyone I could talk to.... kinda why I've some what given up.

Once I get to Jeff's and we pull the oil pan.... more on my end will be known. Oil sample don't show there's a problem though.
 
triton said:
Once I get to Jeff's and we pull the oil pan.... more on my end will be known. Oil sample don't show there's a problem though.
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I'm betting that you won't find any major damage either....Esp. since your oil samples check out!!
 
Big Swole said:
=) Hey, it's All Good!! I was just Ribbin ya a bit!!! Had I not checked, I'd have thought it was TY thread too!!!!

He's made QUITE a name for himself with this RATTLE!!!! LOL LOL

ZIP-TY "The Rattle Man!!" lol


I don't know how to contact Browns...Any help on that would be pre-she-tated!!

I'll be happy to call'm since TY seems to have "PASSED THE TORCH" to me as the next Runner!!!!! :hehe:


There may NEVER be a fix for this but I'd just like to say I at least tried!! I gotta keep up with TY!!!! Well, that'll probably never happen!! He's actually gone WAY further than I would have!! lol

Good Lookin out there TY!!!!!:Cheer:
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click on link www.brownsdiesel.com :Cheer:
 
Well, I think I can eliminate a couple of things. First, I have exactly the same thing Ty has on the rattle. Our engines are very close to the same in build. The rattle happens in low/no boost, even worse when engine is cold (there is a clue perhaps) goes away and sounds beautiful around 5-7 lbs of boost.

I have an 04 engine, so an 03-04 ECM will not solve it. I idle at 5.2-5.5k in rail pressure, so that won't do it. My turbos spool as fast as a stock he351 despite their size, so it is not a turbo thingie. The rattle goes away so quick on mine I don't worry about it too much... but for that split second, man it is a hard rattle.

Only a WAG just like everyone else's, but I think it is a combination of three things: injectors with emphasis on size but to include the mfg and spray angle, timing and compression. I listed them in order to what I think has the most effect. Just MHO.

I'll have to drive down to Reb's shop and let him hear for himself--- maybe he's got an opinion.
 
I know VP trucks are different but when testing the Adrenaline, Quad at Quadzilla used a cylinder pressure gauge when developing initial software/tuning settings. Quad said he got a lot of rattle when timing and fueling was increased above stock without extra air. As soon as 5psi or so showed up on the map sensor, fuel and timing could be bumped with no noise.

Quad said that although cylinder pressures were within a his selected acceptable maximum, the audible rattle was too loud for general public release because too many would complain.

So, at least on a VP44 truck, a little rattle does not mean that cylinder pressures are spiking too high, although they do spike a little and that is what Quad determined to be the cause of the rattle.
 
Same rattle here.

This winter I removed almost every mod I had done to my truck.

- Stock injectors
- Remove Smarty
- Remove second CP3 and controler.
- Stock CP3
- New FCA
- New CamPS, CrankPS.

Things left on the truck:
- Helix II cam
- Sportsman springs
- Quadzilla boost fooler
- 64/13xS480 MPI twins
- Banks intercooler, and intake


So far, nothing has changed the rattle. It is reduced by removing the smarty... But still there.

I have never had anything other than a smarty loaded into the ECM. I started with 4.3, 4.4, then some of the one off TNT tunes. All the way to the current POD TNT software. I also had a smarty Jr. at one point. In fact, I remember the rattle getting worse about that time.

Next is another ECM. Should be here this week some time.

I will let people know if it makes any difference.
 
BHaner said:
Same rattle here.

This winter I removed almost every mod I had done to my truck.

- Stock injectors
- Remove Smarty
- Remove second CP3 and controler.
- Stock CP3
- New FCA
- New CamPS, CrankPS.

Things left on the truck:
- Helix II cam
- Sportsman springs
- Quadzilla boost fooler
- 64/13xS480 MPI twins
- Banks intercooler, and intake


So far, nothing has changed the rattle. It is reduced by removing the smarty... But still there.

I have never had anything other than a smarty loaded into the ECM. I started with 4.3, 4.4, then some of the one off TNT tunes. All the way to the current POD TNT software. I also had a smarty Jr. at one point. In fact, I remember the rattle getting worse about that time.

Next is another ECM. Should be here this week some time.

I will let people know if it makes any difference.
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Definitely looking forward to hearing how the new ECM works for you. I couldn't bring myself to spend the 1K + for a new one.... not that I have it to spend anyway. Do post back about it !
 
Will do.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something messed up with the ECM.

I have lost count of how many times I have changed what is in there. Who knows. Maybe it was one beta programs that we all used that is causing this.

I have had a recovery program from Smarty. But it didn't do anything but reset the fuel used/key count in the ECM.

Oh, BTW, the ECM I have on the way is a used unit. But for $175 I was willing to give it a shot. Check your local junk yards. They are out there.
 
Dang boys, I thought I was anal about my truck. I have just learned to live with it, if she breaks well then good, it will give me a reason to put Mahle pistons and billet rods in it and use it for my "Firebreather" if she don't break well that is good too. I quit worrying so much about it, it the rattle were actually bad people would be breaking more stuff and all of my oil analyses have been great too. There isn't a whole lot that can happen without showing up on an oil analysis. Jay
 
EPA Violator said:
Dang boys, I thought I was anal about my truck. I have just learned to live with it, if she breaks well then good, it will give me a reason to put Mahle pistons and billet rods in it and use it for my "Firebreather" if she don't break well that is good too. I quit worrying so much about it, it the rattle were actually bad people would be breaking more stuff and all of my oil analyses have been great too. There isn't a whole lot that can happen without showing up on an oil analysis. Jay
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There's obviously a problem. Most of those who have the rattle have already gone the performance build route. Mahle's are only good for a race truck and not DD. It's mostly DD that are complaining about the rattle. I agree, it's something we probably need to learn to live with but, until the consequences of the rattle (if any) are found, I think the search needs to continue.

You know how a truck would sound running on 3 cylinders.... that's what we have and it's kinda hard to ignore as it's not normal.
 
BHaner said:
Will do.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something messed up with the ECM.

I have lost count of how many times I have changed what is in there. Who knows. Maybe it was one beta programs that we all used that is causing this.

I have had a recovery program from Smarty. But it didn't do anything but reset the fuel used/key count in the ECM.

Oh, BTW, the ECM I have on the way is a used unit. But for $175 I was willing to give it a shot. Check your local junk yards. They are out there.
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I'm definately interested in finding out your results from the other ecm, but if it has had stuff loaded on it too then we may not have a definitive answer yet again..

Can't be the BETA stuff cause my trucks never had them...Only the standard TNT and now the R57 TNT/R......Of course there was the standard BDTD programs and then a couple different versions of the Crazy Larry programs that were before the Smarty!!

Now, I'm currently testing the PPE "Lite timing HOT +2 E.T.".....Seems to be a little less rattle initially but it still there in a bad way!!.....I will say one thing though, It feels pretty damn strong....Not much hp difference SOP feel form the TNT/R..Im pretty damn'd impressed.......This programmer is Just on LOAN to see if it had any affect.....NO, I'm not leaving Smarty!!!!

Still gonna try the thinner injector washer deal when I have some time....Maybe in a week or two if my HG passes this first test.....I BEAT on it pretty hard last nite!!! I even got stopped by the POLICE!!!!! LOL

He let me go though!!!:rockwoot: Good O'l Boy system works!!!! =)
 
cquestad said:
What does Don M say about the injector placement vs bowl?
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Well, he really didn't comment on it too much other than to say that it (thinner washer install) had been done by him and others..Just need to make sure the tubes seal up good....He really didn't tell me the affects it should have......I'm just guessing that by him NOT telling me to do it that He thinks it'll be worth trying!!

Hoping to do it Wed or Thurs!!
 
Big Swole said:
Well, he really didn't comment on it too much other than to say that it (thinner washer install) had been done by him and others..Just need to make sure the tubes seal up good....He really didn't tell me the affects it should have......I'm just guessing that by him NOT telling me to do it that He thinks it'll be worth trying!!

Hoping to do it Wed or Thurs!!
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Is there a proper way to make sure the tubes seal up good??
 
hey Dave... a few of us are heading to Commerce Friday for some TnT. Thought I'd let you know in case you want to join in. The next day is a GTG about 30 minutes from there with Dave and his dyno and a sled pull.

It's gonna be a make or " break " weekend LOL
 
triton said:
hey Dave... a few of us are heading to Commerce Friday for some TnT. Thought I'd let you know in case you want to join in. The next day is a GTG about 30 minutes from there with Dave and his dyno and a sled pull.

It's gonna be a make or " break " weekend LOL
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MAN!!! I'd SO love to but I'm on duty ALL freakin weekend!!!

Jeff mentioned something about going to a Sled pull this weekend and taking the BUS and setting up his tent he got....Doing a little promo / selling!!

That may be were he's going!!
 
BTW folks....

I did test the PPE tuner with lite timing and the Rattle / Clatter / Pinging
STILL remains....Especially when its hot....and now that its getting warming it seems to be getting worse....So the Smarty is not the cause!! I didn't think it was anyway...

I've tried MANY settings on the Smarty and the other tuner and I've tried it in stock form....It's still doing it!

Gonna try the thinner injector washers on Weds. and see if it does anything at all..Providing that they'll seal up properly with the crossover tubes..
 
Hey Dave, how's the spoolup on your turbo setup? I see you've got the same top turbo as me, 62/71/13SS...well, I was having some spoolup problems and having a LONG/LOUD rattle at take off, so i pulled my turbos. We opened up the inspection cover on the top turbo to look at the wastegate pucks/flapper. Well, the arm was bent forward, increasing the throw of the pucks, so they were actually hitting the housing and not closing all the way.

I brought it down to HTT and they said they had a design flaw in that arm on some of their earlier turbos due to the heat making the arm bend. You may have a newer one and this might not apply to you. But if your spoolup wasn't pretty damn quick, then that might be worth it to check it out. After I re-installed the turbos, the rattle went down considerably! I also noticed when I put my torque management on moderate, I noticed the rattle increase a little bit compared to the stock torque management.

Jared
 
jaredb900rr said:
Hey Dave, how's the spoolup on your turbo setup? I see you've got the same top turbo as me, 62/71/13SS...well, I was having some spoolup problems and having a LONG/LOUD rattle at take off, so i pulled my turbos. We opened up the inspection cover on the top turbo to look at the wastegate pucks/flapper. Well, the arm was bent forward, increasing the throw of the pucks, so they were actually hitting the housing and not closing all the way.

I brought it down to HTT and they said they had a design flaw in that arm on some of their earlier turbos due to the heat making the arm bend. You may have a newer one and this might not apply to you. But if your spoolup wasn't pretty damn quick, then that might be worth it to check it out. After I re-installed the turbos, the rattle went down considerably! I also noticed when I put my torque management on moderate, I noticed the rattle increase a little bit compared to the stock torque management.

Jared
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Yep, same issue with me! Boy does the injectors rattle when you over fuel and under boost. ;-)
 
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