Rebuilt 47RH Dies after 4 miles.

Blacksdieselhp said:
I appreciate the offer, but I'll have to pass. I get all my tranny learning from Dave Goerend, and I still suck at it. So I just rely on him to get my stuff right the first time. Your good at a lot of things Jeff, but you really suck at trannies. Its nothing personal, just the truth.
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Oh ****

Sent from my phone, probably while driving, so please excuse the typos.
 
Blacksdieselhp said:
I appreciate the offer, but I'll have to pass. I get all my tranny learning from Dave Goerend, and I still suck at it. So I just rely on him to get my stuff right the first time. Your good at a lot of things Jeff, but you really suck at trannies. Its nothing personal, just the truth.
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Your "truth" seams more self serving than sincere, once again, "furthering your own agenda"

Garmon vs Goerend - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

Whats addressed in post 101 seams to be the standard operating procedure for Blacks diesel performance, & my thoughts in 110 still apply.
(funny...In Post 37, YOU state: "Jeff Garmon builds good trannys"

A few Refrences for Mr Garmons trannys here:
custom build transmissions by Garmon diesel - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

IMHO you suck at more than trannys.
 
deerefanatic said:
Big Blue, I'm not sure. I highly doubt the seal is folded over as transtec kits come with those awesome "lip wizard" discs that are really slick for getting those seals into place. But, I'll check that tomorrow and get back with you.
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Did you remove the wavy snap ring under the OD brake clutches and leave only the flat snap ring in there? What kind of clearance did you have between the OD piston and the last steel?
 
mathews8pt said:
Did you remove the wavy snap ring under the OD brake clutches and leave only the flat snap ring in there? What kind of clearance did you have between the OD piston and the last steel?
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Yes I did. Also, when I checked the clearance by placing the OD piston, spacer, and torrington on top of the sliding hub, I had like .170 clearance. A friend of mine that builds a lot of trannies said it should be around .095. So I took the spacer, stuck it in my mill and cut it down. Deburred it, and put it back in. I ended up around .100 or so.. I'm thinking this time around I'm going to have the builder that did my last customer's tranny measure for me.
 
I am thinking .120-.140 is a good number. Too tight and your applying the OD clutches before the direct are released.
 
I try to get mine around .100-.110, haven't had a problem there.

I would definitly check the seal and if thats ok then i would say you have a vb issue.
 
zstroken said:
I am thinking .120-.140 is a good number. Too tight and your applying the OD clutches before the direct are released.
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This could be your problem, however, unless you put a pressure gauge on the O/D port and monitor it during the O/D shift, you won't know for sure if it's a clearance problem or a pressure problem.

Since you only had the tranny in operation for such a short time span, I'm inclined to think that the O/D brake clutch was only getting partial engagement due to either low feed pressure or a broken/ruptured seal. The low feed pressure could simply be a worn out O/D solenoid that partially opens when O/D is commanded.


As far as O/D spacer thickness, if you stay on the thick side of the tolerance, you will disengage the O/D - Direct clutches before the O/D - Brake clutches are applied.... this is preferred. There is an over-running one-way roller sprag that will pick-up the load on the Direct to O/D shift if you have too thick of a spacer so there is no problem with flare-shifts if you disengage the O/D - Direct clutches too soon.

If you disengage the O/D - Direct clutches too late, it will put extra wear and tear on the O/D - Brake clutches.
 
Big Blue24 said:
This could be your problem, however, unless you put a pressure gauge on the O/D port and monitor it during the O/D shift, you won't know for sure if it's a clearance problem or a pressure problem.

Since you only had the tranny in operation for such a short time span, I'm inclined to think that the O/D brake clutch was only getting partial engagement due to either low feed pressure or a broken/ruptured seal. The low feed pressure could simply be a worn out O/D solenoid that partially opens when O/D is commanded.


As far as O/D spacer thickness, if you stay on the thick side of the tolerance, you will disengage the O/D - Direct clutches before the O/D - Brake clutches are applied.... this is preferred. There is an over-running one-way roller sprag that will pick-up the load on the Direct to O/D shift if you have too thick of a spacer so there is no problem with flare-shifts if you disengage the O/D - Direct clutches too soon.

If you disengage the O/D - Direct clutches too late, it will put extra wear and tear on the O/D - Brake clutches.
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OK, pulled the OD piston. The outer ad inner seals each have a tiny nick. Can't really see em, but you can feel em.. Not sure if it's from assembly, or from chit gettin in the oil and eating it out.

Bill Kondolay said he never measures air gap. Always measures according to the ATSG book method with the 1/2 thick bar and the dial indicator. I'm going to go this route when I do it this time.

Also, the Valvebody is getting sent down to Dave Goerend to get put on his VB tester after I get it cleaned and reassembled.

And finally, Bill really didn't give me much help about the converter clearance issue. He thinks I measured wrong. LOL, like really, how hard is it to measure converter clearance? LOL Told me right out there's no way the converter could be built wrong. But then followed that up by telling me to email Stephan. So that's what I'm doing right now.
 
Got off the phone with Phil down at DPC. He's seems willing to make this right. I sent an email off to DTT. Everybody's telling me that "the converter's not the problem" but won't give me a straight answer as to why my clearance is so tight, nor will they guarantee that it won't be a problem.
 
I have just read this thread, and have a couple things to say based on what I've read.

As far as Matt's converter clearance issue, it's hard to say from thousands of miles away, but I was there when Bill spoke to Matt on the phone, we were inbound from a race so that's why he told you to e-mail me as I couldn't do anything at the time as I was driving down the I5. He did not say there was "no way the converter was built wrong" he said that "it's unlikely that it was built wrong as they are welded on a JIG."
That being said, anything can be built wrong, it's all about how companies look after there product.

As far as DTT not building there own TC's, we don't, just like Garmon and many other companies. The advantage that we have in this is we are able to actually offer a customer the best TC for there application because all the companies such as Goerend, DPC, and Precision all have applications that work better for certain trucks. That being said it works really well doing stuff this way.

Our DIY programs have worked really well in 90% of the situations, we have sold approx. 500 kits in the last year, and had maybe 10 guys with issues, so that's pretty good numbers. Most guys that build there own units, are very mechanical, although most have never built a transmission, that's why we give our cell phone numbers so that people could ask questions during the build. For most building your own transmission with a billet 3 disk TC and tons of other billet parts for under $2100 is worth a shot.

In this case if there was only 25thou clearance back and forth on the TC, that is not enough and really a call should have been made. Although Matt was told that as long as the converter had movement you were OK was not correct. Lesson learned and I'm sure that mistake will never happen again.

As far as people having issues with DTT Shift Kits, we have had approx 10 guys out of well over 1000 sold with issues. That is a pretty awesome success rate, when you need to consider that most of the 10 guys could have done everything wrong and the VB core could have been the issue, you can ask Goerend or Garmon if you don't believe me, but 9times out of 10 if the VB has a issue after being build the core is at fault. That's why alot of the time we have to build from a brand new VB.

I hope this sheds some light as to any questions people might have about DTT, remember it's only a DTT Trans if we build it.
 
Thanks for steppin in here Stephan.

For the Record:

1. I never said that I had an issue with the Valvebody Kit. It went well, and the instructions for that were good. For the few miles the truck ran, it was exactly like I wanted it to be when I talked to you.. (I think IIRC I told you pre-sale I wanted it to shift hard and fast, cause I like it kinda rough! It does, but not too rough.) What I DID say was possibly the VB is ****ed up. Which is the same thing you're saying. So we're on the same page here.

2: I never said a word here about you not gettin back with me right away yesterday. Bill really should have mentioned that you were both on the road, and I'd have understood. (No texting while driving is law here in Wisconsin)

3: The quality of the parts in the DIY kit were top notch. I just felt that being a DIY kit, a sheet with a simple break down of what parts to toss, what to keep, and what to look crosseyed at would have been helpful! LOL Also, it would have been nice to know also that torrington bearings, and thrust washers didn't come with the kit.. I could then have gotten a more accurate idea of what I was getting for kit contents, plus, could have avoided downtime by ordering those parts early on instead of waiting till the kit arrived to see they weren't in there. Especially being that the list of contents from somebody else's kit that I asked you to compare to yours explicitly showed those items.

4: You dang betcha I won't make that converter clearance mistake again!!!

5: The Converter WAS NOT MY PROBLEM! OK people? It was the freakin overdrive clutch that burned up. Whether it was my fault or the VB's is a moot topic now. IN ADDITION: DTT and DPC are swapping converters for me, and my converter is boxed up and ready to go back as we speak.

I hope this sheds some light on what's going on, and to also clear up what I may or may not have said..
 
Matt, I do think your idea about a sheet is a good one. I will make one and start putting them in. Most of the kits we offer can and will be changed by customer feed back. So thanks for the suggestions. If you seen the rig that Bill was driving down the road you would see why he is somewhat distracted. Our Race trailer and toter home set-up is 80feet long, so doing tech calls and watching the road is a tougher task then people think. :lolly:
 
S. KONDOLAY said:
Matt, I do think your idea about a sheet is a good one. I will make one and start putting them in. Most of the kits we offer can and will be changed by customer feed back. So thanks for the suggestions. If you seen the rig that Bill was driving down the road you would see why he is somewhat distracted. Our Race trailer and toter home set-up is 80feet long, so doing tech calls and watching the road is a tougher task then people think. :lolly:
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Yah, it'd help the clueless like me. Especially where that 3rd gear clutch and piston are concerned.

Yah, I know about pulling trailers and stuff. While my rig isn't that long, I've grossed well in excess of 30k before. Gotta be careful!
 
Update. Valvebody has been disassembled, cleaned, modded for 2nd gear lockup, and is now on it's way to Goerend Transmission to be tested on their valvebody tester. The lower valvebody was not flat, in any stretch of the imagination. Took a lot of time and two sheets of 600 grit paper, but now it's flat. Maybe that had something to do with my OD clutch burnout. LOL
 
S. KONDOLAY said:
I have just read this thread, and have a couple things to say based on what I've read.

As far as Matt's converter clearance issue, it's hard to say from thousands of miles away, but I was there when Bill spoke to Matt on the phone, we were inbound from a race so that's why he told you to e-mail me as I couldn't do anything at the time as I was driving down the I5. He did not say there was "no way the converter was built wrong" he said that "it's unlikely that it was built wrong as they are welded on a JIG."
That being said, anything can be built wrong, it's all about how companies look after there product.

As far as DTT not building there own TC's, we don't, just like Garmon and many other companies. The advantage that we have in this is we are able to actually offer a customer the best TC for there application because all the companies such as Goerend, DPC, and Precision all have applications that work better for certain trucks. That being said it works really well doing stuff this way.

Our DIY programs have worked really well in 90% of the situations, we have sold approx. 500 kits in the last year, and had maybe 10 guys with issues, so that's pretty good numbers. Most guys that build there own units, are very mechanical, although most have never built a transmission, that's why we give our cell phone numbers so that people could ask questions during the build. For most building your own transmission with a billet 3 disk TC and tons of other billet parts for under $2100 is worth a shot.

In this case if there was only 25thou clearance back and forth on the TC, that is not enough and really a call should have been made. Although Matt was told that as long as the converter had movement you were OK was not correct. Lesson learned and I'm sure that mistake will never happen again.

As far as people having issues with DTT Shift Kits, we have had approx 10 guys out of well over 1000 sold with issues. That is a pretty awesome success rate, when you need to consider that most of the 10 guys could have done everything wrong and the VB core could have been the issue, you can ask Goerend or Garmon if you don't believe me, but 9times out of 10 if the VB has a issue after being build the core is at fault. That's why alot of the time we have to build from a brand new VB.
I hope this sheds some light as to any questions people might have about DTT, remember it's only a DTT Trans if we build it.
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I had this very conversation with Dave in person yesterday discussing my options for a VB rebuild on my 321K 1995 47RH. He said we can "try" to make it right but being you cant buy new RH VB's its gonna be a toss on if its right or not when installed. He said all of them that he sells are within specs when they go out but 90% of cores arent reuseable.
 
Yep, I've heard the same thing.. The 47RH may be nearing the end of it's lifespan.. Once VB's are not available, we're ****ed...
 
deerefanatic said:
Yep, I've heard the same thing.. The 47RH may be nearing the end of it's lifespan.. Once VB's are not available, we're ****ed...
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Bad part is it is only a like a 3 or 4 model year transmission. So the aftermarket may not step up on it either. At least the RE were made for over 10 years so there might be some aftermarket for them.
 
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