Swole's Carnage AGAIN!!!!

95-12valve said:
I have your solution Swole...
12 Valve!!!
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I would have to disagree, 12 valve heads dont flow nearly as efficient but the p-pump off a 12 valve would work exceptionally well in delivering fuel without the concentrated heat like the cp3 delivers due to injection pressure. I would stick a p pump on it to avoid further meltdowns. You can change injection duration with delivery valves, timing (possibly variable timing at some point in the future), and you will have the ability to more more fuel than you will ever need. Everyone has their own perogative but I see fewer p-pump related failures, YOU control what, when, and how the pump works instead of relying on a "mild" or "wild" setting and you don't have to spend $10k on a stand alone when they eventually come out. Stick with what is tried and true instead of using your motor like a lab rat. Even when the stand alone comes out, apropriate tuning will still take time. I hope everything works out for you in whatever route you decide to go.
 
Smokem said:
You forgot;
Can anyone tell me how many degrees the timing would need to be advanced before TDC to get the 124° pattern outside of a 3.004" bowl?
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BlackCPG said:
30.482* BTDC?
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Does anyone have a guestimate of the actual timing on these trucks with the different tuners on the market? Or are you guys putting your $6k engine in the hands of someone that will never pay a dime towards your melted motor? I'm not trying to be a smartass but I'd want to know a little more than Mild or Wild. I have never owned a common rail, nor do I plan to at any time in the near future so im no expert on how they work, just trying to give a different perspective. I am building towing twins for my brother's 04.5 common rail and would like to avoid this situation for him.
 
Timing is not the issue period. You would need to advance the main injection event beyond 55° BTDC to get the pattern on the crown. You need to advance the injection event beyond 26° BTDC to get a 152° pattern on the crown of a piston with a 2.413" bowl. The jet angle and direction are completely opposite on the '04.5-07 5.9L, which I think most are not understanding here. I believe most failures like this are caused by a hung injector, which is not uncommon in any application. The problem is, in a CR application when the nozzle hangs open, you have maximum quantity injected at all times vs the fuel delivery in pulsations in the mechanical systems. Increasing the duration and pressure could lead the flame outside of the bowl containment, but I feel the angle is just not working, as do many others.
 
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2007 5.9 said:
This is strictly thoery here....Common Rail Meltdown similarities....

1. Smarty
2. Big Twins
3. Dual Cp3
4. Stock IC
5. F1 injectors

Not trying to point fingers....but merely informational.:poke:
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ICs are useless. unless you mounting one on the roof with the dimensions of.....4'x8' with 6" core.ha

but if anyone wants one i can "hook it up"
 
Charles said:
I think more interest needs to be payed to figuring out why you're spraying soooooooo far outside the bowl.

Way to much timing, to broad a spray angle or both. Hell, the dimples in these pistons always look like they start at the damn cylinder wall. I mean, is the spray actually hitting the damn cylinder walls?

What's the vertical distance from the centerline of the nozzle holes on an installed injector to the bowl lip, the width of the bowl, rod length, compression height and stroke.

With that info the guessing stops, as you can tell the minimum timing required for any given nozzle angle to miss the bowl static. In a running engine as rpm climbs that number will only get larger and larger anyway.

I get the feeling you guys are running waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much timing, or the nozzle spray angle is getting way F'ed somehow.

Just me.
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I'm wondering the same... How does pressure affect this? Simple comparison that I hope can be applied to this. But a hose, at full pressure is 10psi and travels 20 foot. at 5psi, travels 10 foot. That's the same in the cylinder correct? So, 20* BTDC @ stock 24.5Kpsi is "ok", in the bowl If Dave was at 35K he's out side the bowl with the same timing in theory because the fuel is traveling much faster. Problem here, we do not know the real timing nor the real pressure.

Am I on track with this?
 
Flame swirl is counter-clockwise in every engine except the '04.5-07 which is clockwise, the flame is running up the wall and onto the crown, not being sprayed directly onto the crown.
 
Smokem said:
Flame swirl is counter-clockwise in every engine except the '04.5-07 which is clockwise, the flame is running up the wall and onto the crown, not being sprayed directly onto the crown.
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I learning here and thank you for all the replies....I'll check you pm here in a sec....I'm having a Crazy day on the job ( accidents, sexual battery call, alarms, etc.....Typical Friday) I'll get back to everyone as fast as I can..


Throwing a wrench / Question in this mix...


How does Decompression in these CR's affect this timing , pressure , out side the bowl, flame climbing wall stuff???

My old old build was decompress a Lot .100 off the top of the piston plus a thicker then stock mls gasket. ( 24V with o-ring'd head)....

This recent build was not as decompressed....I had .007 decked off the block, the head was decked .002-003 back with we had it o-ring'd, and the piston's were cut .020 before the coating was installed...And a modded 12V gasket that crushes to I beleive .056-.058...

The calcluation's showed me being at right around 15.7 - 16:1

How does this fit into the whole injector, tunning, building blame thing...




I truly don't think find blame is key here but for all of us (esp. you smark folk) to learn how to keep me and everyone else from doing this again...

Thanks
 
Swole...would Garmon with their new test bench, be able to determine the actual injector spray angle???

Be curious to see if a independent test bench were able to determine if the spray angle of your melted holes match up to the un melted ones...and if the injector spray angle of the piston that has CLEAR out of the bowl spray are all 124* like they should be....
 
2007 5.9 said:
and if the injector spray angle of the piston that has CLEAR out of the bowl spray.
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You just don't get it do you. The only way that any 124° injector can spray directly onto the crown, is if the pintle is hung open.
 
Big Swole said:
I learning here and thank you for all the replies....I'll check you pm here in a sec....I'm having a Crazy day on the job ( accidents, sexual battery call, alarms, etc.....Typical Friday) I'll get back to everyone as fast as I can..


Throwing a wrench / Question in this mix...


How does Decompression in these CR's affect this timing , pressure , out side the bowl, flame climbing wall stuff???

My old old build was decompress a Lot .100 off the top of the piston plus a thicker then stock mls gasket. ( 24V with o-ring'd head)....

This recent build was not as decompressed....I had .007 decked off the block, the head was decked .002-003 back with we had it o-ring'd, and the piston's were cut .020 before the coating was installed...And a modded 12V gasket that crushes to I beleive .056-.058...

The calcluation's showed me being at right around 15.7 - 16:1

How does this fit into the whole injector, tunning, building blame thing...




I truly don't think find blame is key here but for all of us (esp. you smark folk) to learn how to keep me and everyone else from doing this again...

Thanks
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Too many things to consider, too many variables,

but when your decompressing, how are you doing so? shaving pistons? thicker head gaskets? Both of those actually move the injector tip away from bowl, perhaps far enough to be spraying on top of the piston.

Don said he shaved the nozzel caps off, i assume he was meaning the injectors you had in, 30 thous.

i personally dont think high timing, unless its crazy high to the point of pre detonation, would cause the piston melting. Nor do i think its a high EGT issue. with the twin setup, he should of been running cooler than any single charger.

next question, what was your rail pressure, or did i miss that in the reading?
 
2007 5.9 said:
Swole...would Garmon with their new test bench, be able to determine the actual injector spray angle???

Be curious to see if a independent test bench were able to determine if the spray angle of your melted holes match up to the un melted ones...and if the injector spray angle of the piston that has CLEAR out of the bowl spray are all 124* like they should be....
Click to expand...




Not sure if Jeff could check that or not...We'll see...

As for these injectors, This is the key point that makes me think something else is wrong and not the injecotrs:


These Flux 3.8's were in my old build for quite a while....I was using the PPE the WHOLE TIME before I window'd the block last time!!

Those cut piston's (.100 off top ) were just Fine when I pulled that engine....

I used my MP8 at 100% Many Many times!


So, having said that. Why didn't it do this on my last build...??
 
Smokem said:
You just don't get it do you. The only way that any 124° injector can spray directly onto the crown, is if the pintle is hung open.
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Fair enough...I'm trying to learn.

I might have worded it incorrectly...
 
Big Swole said:
Not sure if Jeff could check that or not...We'll see...

As for these injectors, This is the key point that makes me think something else is wrong and not the injecotrs:


These Flux 3.8's were in my old build for quite a while....I was using the PPE the WHOLE TIME before I window'd the block last time!!

Those cut piston's (.100 off top ) were just Fine when I pulled that engine....

I used my MP8 at 100% Many Many times!


So, having said that. Why didn't it do this on my last build...??
Click to expand...

Knowing these values would certianly eliminate one possibility.
 
Smokem said:
You just don't get it do you. The only way that any 124° injector can spray directly onto the crown, is if the pintle is hung open.
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So, what exactly is "timing rattle" isn't something to be worried about so long as your not fully loaded and under boost? I thought timing rattle was fuel getting out side the bowl problem
 
I believe what Weston is driving at here is that with the non-reentrant design 04.5-0. Piston and injector the fuel sprays at the middle of the bowl, rolling out to the crown as it's being burned...which makes the hotter part or the burn end up at the already smaller crown. With the typical re-entrant you can spray out of the bowl easier but the fuel is hitting the crown and rolling back in, keeping the cooler part of the burn on the thicker crown, and concentrating the later, hotter part of the burn in the center ofthe bowl.
 
There you go, now this conversation is headed in the right direction. This point has been overlooked in every meltdown thread.
 
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