Swole's Carnage AGAIN!!!!

i'm a complete nub when it comes to CR.... BUT

is there any chance then when u unloaded the PPE and switched to the smarty, that it didn't unload out of the PCM completely.... in theory double stacking them ?> causing fubar....

learning as well here just thought i'd dump my stunned opinion.... weston seems to be making the most sense, to me anyway.
 
Wow Swole can't believe your on another one!

Like Smokem has been trying to get across is it is not direct spray that is getting to the crown!

However it is still getting there just curving off the bottom of the bowl and up, just look at Dons avatar and you will see.

Now fact is that piston nozzle combo melts down like no other. Cummins abandoned the design and once again back to a re-entry bowl.

To the meltdown at hand, one way or the other fuel was getting to the cylinder to early. IMO at the uber pressure you were running the injectors are not doing what the ecu is commanding.
Next build? If steel isn't in the budget then 03-04 piston/nozzle and get back in control of the pressure.
Posting from this damn BB or I would have a lot more wind lol!
 
RAWdiesel said:
Too many things to consider, too many variables,

but when your decompressing, how are you doing so? shaving pistons? thicker head gaskets? Both of those actually move the injector tip away from bowl, perhaps far enough to be spraying on top of the piston.

Don said he shaved the nozzel caps off, i assume he was meaning the injectors you had in, 30 thous.

i personally dont think high timing, unless its crazy high to the point of pre detonation, would cause the piston melting. Nor do i think its a high EGT issue. with the twin setup, he should of been running cooler than any single charger.

next question, what was your rail pressure, or did i miss that in the reading?
Click to expand...



When we did the old setup...The .100 was taken straight off the top...Plus a 24v gasket is approx. .012 - .014 Thicker than an MLS gasket.

This setup had .020 taken right off the top as well...and the 12v gasket is again .012-.014 thicker than stock...

The caps that had the ground off (.30) were taken off for this build because I was supposed to be up around 16.5 : 1 or above....But Wade forgot I was o-ring'd and gonna use a thicker gasket....So I thought I need the stock collars on my stix....
The cut one's were sent back to Don with some cores that I acquired...

Either way....The same injectors didn't melt my old setup and they were further out of the bowl due to decompression....(all runs / miles on PPE)...

Not blaming the Smarty...Maybe it was just bad timing (time frame of failure) when I had just switch to it....

Something's different!! Maybe switching messed up the ecm somehow.....

Thoughts?
 
Timing rattle has to do with peak cyl press, not where the spray is on the piston.
Click to expand...

From what I've witnessed on the highly instrumented engines at work, timing "rattle" becomes a problem as you go above 10 - 12 bar/deg peak pressure rise and/or get a 50% burn time any earlier than 9 - 10° atdc...both of which are difficult to determine without in-cylinder pressure measurement.

--Eric
 
Smokem said:
There you go, now this conversation is headed in the right direction. This point has been overlooked in every meltdown thread.
Click to expand...



Still haven't checked you pm yet...Headed to another call now...

But Plain and Simple!!


Weston, What do you think I should do???? PM me if you don't want to post up.....Box is getting full and I can't keep it deleted fast enough...I will soon I get a break from this police Madness ( Friday's!!!!!:bang )
 
Big Swole said:
When we did the old setup...The .100 was taken straight off the top...Plus a 24v gasket is approx. .012 - .014 Thicker than an MLS gasket.

This setup had .020 taken right off the top as well...and the 12v gasket is again .012-.014 thicker than stock...

The caps that had the ground off (.30) were taken off for this build because I was supposed to be up around 16.5 : 1 or above....But Wade forgot I was o-ring'd and gonna use a thicker gasket....So I thought I need the stock collars on my stix....
The cut one's were sent back to Don with some cores that I acquired...

Either way....The same injectors didn't melt my old setup and they were further out of the bowl due to decompression....(all runs / miles on PPE)...

Not blaming the Smarty...Maybe it was just bad timing (time frame of failure) when I had just switch to it....

Something's different!! Maybe switching messed up the ecm somehow.....

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

So stock caps were used,

I think when you decompressed and used the thicker gasket, that it pulled the injector spray out of the bowl,

now as to why the PPE didnt cause any problems is a good question? did the truck run hotter or more powerful? if the smarty was producing more power, the temps would of been hotter?

do you remember what the rail pressure was?

were you running anything else other than a smarty?

Im trying some new experimental stuff with the injectors on this new engine im building, which i hope works out and either proves or disproves my theory.
 
Holy Crap

Swole
Im at a loss for words.
Most has been covered here already.
I feel for ya,
doug
 
just by pictures alone, looks like what ever was sucked into the turbo caused the start of the problem, or turbo was the problem.

looks like metal entered caused failure to injector, causing fuel wash.
 
RAWdiesel said:
So stock caps were used,

I think when you decompressed and used the thicker gasket, that it pulled the injector spray out of the bowl,

now as to why the PPE didnt cause any problems is a good question? did the truck run hotter or more powerful? if the smarty was producing more power, the temps would of been hotter?

do you remember what the rail pressure was?

were you running anything else other than a smarty?

Im trying some new experimental stuff with the injectors on this new engine im building, which i hope works out and either proves or disproves my theory.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Lite timing PPE is why I wasn't having problems with it....Even with this new build and stock inj. collars, I was probably a little out of the bowl....I think the added timing from the Smarty or the unknown ecm problem may have broke the camel's back...

Yes, As SOON as I let out of it and realized I had a problem, the coolant temps seemed a bit higher than normal..I'm sure it was from the cylinder temps being so high and extra friction of the melted piston!

As for making more power....Hard to tell...I had my Best ever 1/8 mile time and trap speed but not by much....7.165 @ 97.XX VS 7.169 @ 96.7X
1/4 was fast almost tied my best 11.23 @119.XX....but with the fuel line loss and carnage, I understand why I lost a half a MPH or so...

RP........I am Absolutly Horrible at watching my guage's when making a pass...I guess sled pullers have it a little easier there due to 25-40 mph ground speeds and not 100-120 mph.......I wish I could tell ya..

Typically though with my MP8 up at 100% I'm right around 26-27K psi on my dipricol guage...

I don't run an EGT guage....As Jeff says, On a CR they are worthless as far as actually telling you whats going on inside the cylinder..

doug60 said:
Swole
Im at a loss for words.
Most has been covered here already.
I feel for ya,
doug
Click to expand...


Thank you Doug!! I appreciate the concern as always!!:Cheer:
 
Tragic said:
just by pictures alone, looks like what ever was sucked into the turbo caused the start of the problem, or turbo was the problem.

looks like metal entered caused failure to injector, causing fuel wash.
Click to expand...



Other may comment but I have to disagree respectfully.

Turbine wheel is what was damaged...I don't think anything came in to do the damage...That was all done from exiting material.

The Injector tip is still in tack...Just beat up a bit.....
 
Tragic said:
just by pictures alone, looks like what ever was sucked into the turbo caused the start of the problem, or turbo was the problem.

looks like metal entered caused failure to injector, causing fuel wash.
Click to expand...

the turbine wheel on the secondary is beat
 
"I don't run an EGT guage....As Jeff says, On a CR they are worthless as far as actually telling you whats going on inside the cylinder.."


David they are useful for tuning IMO
 
Way usefull...

20075.9...

"This is strictly thoery here....Common Rail Meltdown similarities....

1. Smarty
2. Big Twins
3. Dual Cp3
4. Stock IC
5. F1 injectors"


You just listed the recipe to get into the big boy club...one would think once your there....stuff might break a little more often.

Just build back to 03-04 specs.... at 150k my cylinder walls l and pistons looked new...not kidding.
 
Big Swole said:
Typically though with my MP8 up at 100% I'm right around 26-27K psi on my dipricol guage...
Click to expand...

David,

Again, don't be fooled by your gauge!!! If it uses the factory sender, it only reads to 26.1k!! With the MP-8 at 100% with dual pumps I garauntee you are probably in the 30k+ range.
 
I highly doubt the stock intercooler has anything to do with David (or anyone else's) CR meltdown
 
Dockboy said:
David,

Again, don't be fooled by your gauge!!! If it uses the factory sender, it only reads to 26.1k!! With the MP-8 at 100% with dual pumps I garuantee you are probably in the 30k+ range.
Click to expand...

I data logged runs with an after market rail sensor that reads to 35k. During most street runs with a mp-8 on full and the rest on kill my pressure would not exceed 28k until I let out then it would smack 33000-35000 for a split second.
I'm no drag racer, so my tests would be max 5-7 seconds by seven seconds I would be at max rpm and my 38" tires would be egg shapped.
 
It also matters what mp-8 you have...

I have a soft one...that only does half of the total ramp of my other.

Years ago they stopped doing custom tunes for the most part...but there are a few versions out there.
 
Dockboy said:
David,

Again, don't be fooled by your gauge!!! If it uses the factory sender, it only reads to 26.1k!! With the MP-8 at 100% with dual pumps I garauntee you are probably in the 30k+ range.
Click to expand...

Greg, looking closer at some runs with no TST in the mix you are bang on. My pressure was 31-32k for 7 seconds and of course the famous spike.
I purchased a relief valve set to 29k so we will see how it does.
 
For anyone's that's ever listened to some of the raspy ass CR dodge engines running around, how can you immediately think there's just no way they're running enough timing to be spraying outside the bowl?

Some of them sound like they're running damn near enough timing to be catching back up with the previous firing cycle two revs ago...

If the bottom end wasn't so G'damn tough I think this problem may have sorted itself out long ago.

I don't see how spray from within the bowl is going to make perfectly symmetrical and perfectly shaped spray lines on the top of the piston by just rolling back out.


- Apparently nobody knows their own injection timing

- These things sound like warmed over ass at full power

- They make amazing power for any given fuel quantity injected

- And the pistons look like sunflowers with a perfect spray melted into them


I'm not saying it's happening, because I for one don't work on these things, but I'm just saying, looking at those observations, excessive timing seems pretty damn par for the course here.

If an engine with variable timing is rattling like crazy you need to reassess IMO. Cause you're F'ing something up. The only reason a mech engine will do this down low is because they can't reduce timing down there and just have to deal with it and try and stay above it. For an electronic engine with fully adjustable timing/injection pressure it's totally asinine IMO to be doing that.

That's just me.
 
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