2.6 Turbo Limitations

Diesel Freak said:
Quick Question....

are modifications allowed to the inducer entrance region before the MWE on the compressor cover? Just currious cuz a 2.6 turbo could benefit from a 7/16 inch radius blended into the bore just before the MWE.....
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"Turbocharger: The vehicle is limited to a single turbocharger; the inducer bore on the compressor housing may be 2.6”. The inlet will be measured using a 2.65-inch plug or internal calipers. A stock map width enhancement (MWE) groove is allowed. No MWE groove will be allowed that has a width greater than 1/4 inch. All provisions
allowing air to the wheel other than via the bore and the MWE groove are prohibited.
6.4 liter Powerstroke engines may utilize the factory twin-turbo configuration."



Here's my take: the principle is, "read the rule, don't read into the rule."

The way the rule is written, it doesn't say where the 2.65" restriction has to be, just that one must exist somewhere in the bore.

Discuss.
 
JOHNBOY said:
Yes he has both of us have one. Depending on which spec turbo you have they can be pretty reasonable. I bought a GT42 plain bearing for $1200. I can drive 30mins and the local pump shop has them sitting on the shelf. Not sure what the price is now. But it is not crazy out of line IMHO.
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Sorry, I should have said..."have you ever priced a winning superfarm turbo?''
 
GRotman said:
Have you ever priced a superfarm turbo? They make a custom 2.6 look cheap.
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It depends on which rendition of Super Farm you're talking about.

Yeah, CDS has stupid-expensive SF turbos. There are also GT42-based SF classes.

If you do some Googling, there was a study done by one of the midwest sanctioning bodies where they ran 3" x 3" chargers on the same tractor on the dyno. Long story short, the super-wackadoo billet wheel units costing $5k or more made <100 HP more than a box-stock GT42. So they said screw it and made the box-stock turbo the legal one, and saved everyone a ton o' loot.

I am not saying we could do this tomorrow and/or that it would be without issues. But I firmly believe that the tractor guys have seen all this stuff before, and if we draw on their experience, we just might learn something. Cost containment and keeping things reasonable can only help the smaller classes.

But, hey, whatever, just chipping in ideas.
 
wow a 100hp is a ton if you think about it that is a 10% gain on the average top 10 tractor. I know guys that spend thousands on dyno time just to find 10hp here or there on there Superfarm tractors
 
Exactly what smokinrod said, in a limited class such as superfarm gaining 20hp. is a huge deal, and also very costly.
 
PPL didnt follow the NTPA rule of getting your turbo inspected and sealed and things seemed to go fine last summer.
 
GRotman said:
Sorry, I should have said..."have you ever priced a winning superfarm turbo?''
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Like nwpadmax said you can buy the better turbo but from CDS. But that does not mean you cant win with a GT42. Spending uber amounts of money garrantes nothing to be honest. Wonderful thing about pulling. Having more power than you can get to the ground does no good.
But what do I know? I just pull with a junk azz GT42 and I dont sell turbos.
 
So....2.6 chargers, Are the purpose built chargers the enemy? What rules should be in place to level the charger field? Is it a cost thing when these dont have to cost more than some of the "street" turbo's listed earlier in this thread? As you stated John, too much power isnt always the key, set up is critical.
 
The simple question is this, and I'm done:

Who does this rule serve?

Answer is simple:

1) Technical officials at pulls, since teching is now simplified and quicker.
2) Turbo vendors who will sell modded chargers.

The thing missing in that answer, is the pullers who want to or can only afford to step up one level from work stock. So for the guy who has been thinking of buying a Silver Bullet or HTT66 or whatver, forget that. Now you gotta get a bigger hammer to run against the "wolf in sheep's clothing" 2.8" and 3.0" chargers with counterbored housings.

And in my best Forrest Gump voice, "and that's all I have to say about that."

Looks like 2009 is "game on." Good luck everyone and Happy Holidays.
 
nwpadmax said:
The simple question is this, and I'm done:

Who does this rule serve?

Answer is simple:

1) Technical officials at pulls, since teching is now simplified and quicker.
2) Turbo vendors who will sell modded chargers.

The thing missing in that answer, is the pullers who want to or can only afford to step up one level from work stock. So for the guy who has been thinking of buying a Silver Bullet or HTT66 or whatver, forget that. Now you gotta get a bigger hammer to run against the "wolf in sheep's clothing" 2.8" and 3.0" chargers with counterbored housings.

And in my best Forrest Gump voice, "and that's all I have to say about that."

Looks like 2009 is "game on." Good luck everyone and Happy Holidays.
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Only a 3.0?? :hehe:
 
carfichris said:
So....2.6 chargers, Are the purpose built chargers the enemy? What rules should be in place to level the charger field? Is it a cost thing when these dont have to cost more than some of the "street" turbo's listed earlier in this thread? As you stated John, too much power isnt always the key, set up is critical.
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Chris I am with nwpadmax on this one. I could discuss more but I feel if you want to talk about this more I would rather do it over the phone.

"Game On"
 
Turbo

We did some testing last week with a bushing and I can tell you that a 2.8 truck with a bushing or machined cover will dominate the 2.6 class. The ITPA turbo rule will be a 2.6 inducer with a standard map width groove and no tapered bores. The exducer will be limited to 100mm with no cutback wheels. Yes, it will take a little longer to tech the first time but it allows everyone to compete on a level playing field and puts the driver and set up back in the game. The rules will be in place for 3 years so that no one has to build a new set up every year. In my opinion, the modded stock chargers and the A4K or GT chargers will be more equal. We are also looking at giving the Ford guys some help in areas to make them a little more competative but that discussion will happen later.

I also plan on asking that no 2.8 trucks are allowed to step down but the 2.6 truck may be allowed to jump classes if time permits. Our 2.8 class rule package is frozen until next year then we may look at stepping it up.

We need to attract more "first time pullers" to the sport and if they can at least be in the middle to back of the pack the fist time..they are hooked!!lol
 
I'm shopping for a 2.6 cover for my HX82, anyone know where I can get one?

Seriously, I understand that everyone wants this class to not be about spending money, but anytime you have a motorsport and a set of rules, someone is going to push the limits of the rules, THAT IS WHY THEY ARE THERE! If your not pushing the limits then your not playing the game. Furthermore I think a spec turbo rules is a terrible one. With the different displacements and RPM capabilities of the various engines competing a great spec turbo for a Cummins in this app would only work OK for say a Dmax, and vice versa. You could probably make the spec turbo work for any app with some timing and cam tweaks, but that is far from holding back on the money spent.

The guys that know how to set thier junk up will always be competitive. You can change the rules all day long, and the same guys that know thier trucks, setup and can figure out how to extract the most usable power from thier rigs will always be in the hunt.
 
TAZMAN10 said:
I also plan on asking that no 2.8 trucks are allowed to step down but the 2.6 truck may be allowed to jump classes if time permits. l
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TRANSLATION:Sign up for 2.6 first boys, otherwise you be branded an evil 2.8 and not allowed to go down!!


You guys are going to NASCAR it do death and have a turbo of tomorrow, before its over.

Let them run for a few years, see where they they go, change the rule and bump the hot shots up a class.
 
nwpadmax said:
The simple question is this, and I'm done:

Who does this rule serve?

Answer is simple:

1) Technical officials at pulls, since teching is now simplified and quicker.
2) Turbo vendors who will sell modded chargers.

The thing missing in that answer, is the pullers who want to or can only afford to step up one level from work stock. So for the guy who has been thinking of buying a Silver Bullet or HTT66 or whatver, forget that. Now you gotta get a bigger hammer to run against the "wolf in sheep's clothing" 2.8" and 3.0" chargers with counterbored housings.

And in my best Forrest Gump voice, "and that's all I have to say about that."

Looks like 2009 is "game on." Good luck everyone and Happy Holidays.
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Your statement above. In some cases those "street" chargers are similar in money to some competitive "class spec'd" chargers. If you have the choice of turbo's to buy, wouldnt you look at buying one that better suits your goals as a puller?

If a 2.6 guy already has his charger. He bought one without thinking of spending similar money on a purpose built charger for his intended goals. Do you now tie the hands of a guy who wants to explore his options and use the rule's to his advantage?

We dont have anything to gain from the rule's being put either way. We build them to fit the specified rule package the customer is using, it makes no difference what we cut.

The sport needs to grow on both ends, competition within the field and growth of the class. Isnt the purpose of forums like this to help a puller wanting to run 2.6 make some informed decisions? What do you tell a guy who went to Scheids this summer and watched Wes Wade run 400'? He got bit at a big event plus pulled a couple local brush pulls. Now he is considering jumping in. Why is it so bad if he wants to use something to better his chances and still fits the rules? Motorsports will always be a competitive arena.
 
Sledpuller said:
TRANSLATION:Sign up for 2.6 first boys, otherwise you be branded an evil 2.8 and not allowed to go down!!


You guys are going to NASCAR it do death and have a turbo of tomorrow, before its over.

Let them run for a few years, see where they they go, change the rule and bump the hot shots up a class.
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Well said Gene :Cheer:
 
carfichris said:
Your statement above. In some cases those "street" chargers are similar in money to some competitive "class spec'd" chargers. If you have the choice of turbo's to buy, wouldnt you look at buying one that better suits your goals as a puller?

If a 2.6 guy already has his charger. He bought one without thinking of spending similar money on a purpose built charger for his intended goals. Do you now tie the hands of a guy who wants to explore his options and use the rule's to his advantage?

We dont have anything to gain from the rule's being put either way. We build them to fit the specified rule package the customer is using, it makes no difference what we cut.

The sport needs to grow on both ends, competition within the field and growth of the class. Isnt the purpose of forums like this to help a puller wanting to run 2.6 make some informed decisions? What do you tell a guy who went to Scheids this summer and watched Wes Wade run 400'? He got bit at a big event plus pulled a couple local brush pulls. Now he is considering jumping in. Why is it so bad if he wants to use something to better his chances and still fits the rules? Motorsports will always be a competitive arena.
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OK, Chris, what do you tell the guy who bought a charger last year based on a tighter set of rules? Now that the rules are opened up, he's screwed, get out the checkbook.

Gene, I'm not going to get ornery with you on here, but I maintain that this change does not help the puller. When you say "NASCAR it do death," I translate, "we don't want to take the time to tech these trucks." What other reasoning can you offer for this? What's your real goal?

Has NADM fixed these rules for X period of time? Or are they totally at your discretion? Giving people some kind of outlook would be helpful. A lot of people are changing stuff based on NADM. If you change things for 2010, expect the barbarians at your gate with torches in hand!

Ric, keep up the good work. I think you're absolutely going down the right road.
 
carfichris said:
Your statement above. In some cases those "street" chargers are similar in money to some competitive "class spec'd" chargers. If you have the choice of turbo's to buy, wouldnt you look at buying one that better suits your goals as a puller?

If a 2.6 guy already has his charger. He bought one without thinking of spending similar money on a purpose built charger for his intended goals. Do you now tie the hands of a guy who wants to explore his options and use the rule's to his advantage?

We dont have anything to gain from the rule's being put either way. We build them to fit the specified rule package the customer is using, it makes no difference what we cut.

The sport needs to grow on both ends, competition within the field and growth of the class. Isnt the purpose of forums like this to help a puller wanting to run 2.6 make some informed decisions? What do you tell a guy who went to Scheids this summer and watched Wes Wade run 400'? He got bit at a big event plus pulled a couple local brush pulls. Now he is considering jumping in. Why is it so bad if he wants to use something to better his chances and still fits the rules? Motorsports will always be a competitive arena.
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but what about the guy that this class was made for the guy that just wanted to keep his truck a daily driver and step up to a little bit bigger charger. 2.8 or 3.0 is the next step for him after he has done well in 2.6 but now everyone is building motors and running 3.0 custom cover chargers no place for the little guy to go with out some big $$$$$$
 
nwpadmax said:
OK, Chris, what do you tell the guy who bought a charger last year based on a tighter set of rules? Now that the rules are opened up, he's screwed, get out the checkbook.
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Did the rules really open up that much that competitors are "screwed"? In a non hanging weight class with all the other limits, is horsepower the only thing that matters? The guy with the charger from last year could still have the advantage if he's been dialing in his truck. Mike Tomac was a perfect example of what fine tuning your set up can do.


There are valid arguments on both sides of the rule. I dont want to see it unfair and as I said before in this thread, it really doesnt matter to me what the rule is, we cnc accordingly.

If your claim is that its all money and your concerned about how much your competitors have to spend, thats honorable of you. The chargers you reference in your conversation about increasing costs (SB66, HTT66) run as much as a class specific competition charger can in some case's, so I really dont get your point.

If its out of concern that your truck wont place as high in the competition as last year, welcome to competitive motorsports.
 
nwpadmax said:
OK, Chris, what do you tell the guy who bought a charger last year based on a tighter set of rules? Now that the rules are opened up, he's screwed, get out the checkbook.
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We need to get something very clear here. NADM 2009 2.6 turbo rule is the same as it was in 2008. Cooper, This isn't the NADM forum, and you are on the edge of attacking me/NADM for making a "change" that isn't even there!!!!!

The bottom line is this: If your pulling budget is $5000, and your buddys is $100,000, you have a good chance of losing no matter what the rules say.

That cannot be stopped.


When we see a large number of pullers agreeing on a plan to tighten the turbo rule that doesn't just pick on the winner,(rpm rule anyone?) but actually will benefit the class as a whole, we'll listen.

As far as major changes to rules, I think I have proven from one organization to another, I don't change the rules willy nilly.
 
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