fordassassin
FordAssassin
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:clap: I have to agree with that after what J.P said. If one cam is better than the other, it will effect business for the other companies that make cams.
Cam comparison
- Thread starter Diesel Nut
- Start date
:clap: I have to agree with that after what J.P said. If one cam is better than the other, it will effect business for the other companies that make cams.
I don't know if it will or won't happen. I do know Diesel Nut is trying to make it as fair and even as possible to all involved. He even allowed the folks involved to come up with their own parameters that could be agreed on. I don't think it really matters which dyno is used. While you'll get different results mustang to dynojet, it will be consistent within the same dyno. I'd be willing to bet that the results will be fairly close to each other, no really clear winner or loser, each having its own distinct advantage/disadvantage. The power curve and peak tq/hp will be well shown. Perhaps even difference in total boost (although that is hard to be consistent on a dyno). I think spoolup though is somewhat subjective; especially on a dyno.
Well everyone wants proof of some sort instead of BS-- what better way to do it? Either the mfg has faith in his product or ???
Yeah the cost and pain of the labor involved far outstrips the cost of the cam... so the fact diesel nut is willing to do it speaks volumes.
Well everyone wants proof of some sort instead of BS-- what better way to do it? Either the mfg has faith in his product or ???
Yeah the cost and pain of the labor involved far outstrips the cost of the cam... so the fact diesel nut is willing to do it speaks volumes.
COMP461
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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Here are a few paremeters that I propose , with scoring for each on a percentage basis. There are many examples of this in Motor Trend, Hot Rod and other magizine articles , when comparing cars , or product.
All test should be blind , inother words the dyno operator, driver , or evaluator being unaware of which cam system is installed
1st dyno test with scoring for both torque , and horse power
2nd drag racing
3rd acceleration test 10 mph to 60 mph timed
4th acceleration test with a know weight trailer , example 5000 lbs 10 mph to 60 mph timed .
5th egt on the times trailer pull test .
6th fuel economy test
7th truck owner , magazine writer , seat of the pants test
The public will be the ultimate winner , in that no one cam will be the best at all of the task , this is the critical part of picking the correct cam for the specific application.
I feel that Jason is best for this in that one he has installed all three brands of cams , I don’t feel that he is going to go against his principals to do anything but a fair and impartial test. He has the ability to degree a cam in , check valve clearance , and knowledge about camshaft dynamic .
As far as the other magazine test that Zach did on his own , I feel that since no one was contacted , its nothing but a infomercial , and with that particular freelance writer, there is absolutely no way it was impartial .
I may not see eye to eye with Don , but the posted 200+ hp difference is absolutely impossible, unless the test was skewed. Come on 200+ hp , think about it , what happen , were the valves special lashed at .100.
It seems like one person has only one mode of marketing , that is attack, bash , and attempt to do a scam test .
Lastly if necessary a referee could be utilized , question is who.
They would have to be some one that has a reputation of being impartial , knoagable , and know to all.
I would recommend Tim Tuner , but Bankers can’t take a week off.
David Kennedy, or Jason Sands , but they the writers , if they choose to do this one.
Ill even chip in for the expenses of who ever .
I would like to think that Don , Bill , myself and Zach could all show up.
This is no different that a dyno test or a drag race ,
If the notice had of been more the we could have done it at the TS event , and use one truck, and each one install their cam with a blind dyno , and other events
In any case I’m in , and willing to send product to a third party , Like Tim , or who ever is picked. The cams will be delivered with instructions in plane boxes with manufactor markings ground off just A,B,C,D to Jason. he will not even know whos cam is whos
All test should be blind , inother words the dyno operator, driver , or evaluator being unaware of which cam system is installed
1st dyno test with scoring for both torque , and horse power
2nd drag racing
3rd acceleration test 10 mph to 60 mph timed
4th acceleration test with a know weight trailer , example 5000 lbs 10 mph to 60 mph timed .
5th egt on the times trailer pull test .
6th fuel economy test
7th truck owner , magazine writer , seat of the pants test
The public will be the ultimate winner , in that no one cam will be the best at all of the task , this is the critical part of picking the correct cam for the specific application.
I feel that Jason is best for this in that one he has installed all three brands of cams , I don’t feel that he is going to go against his principals to do anything but a fair and impartial test. He has the ability to degree a cam in , check valve clearance , and knowledge about camshaft dynamic .
As far as the other magazine test that Zach did on his own , I feel that since no one was contacted , its nothing but a infomercial , and with that particular freelance writer, there is absolutely no way it was impartial .
I may not see eye to eye with Don , but the posted 200+ hp difference is absolutely impossible, unless the test was skewed. Come on 200+ hp , think about it , what happen , were the valves special lashed at .100.
It seems like one person has only one mode of marketing , that is attack, bash , and attempt to do a scam test .
Lastly if necessary a referee could be utilized , question is who.
They would have to be some one that has a reputation of being impartial , knoagable , and know to all.
I would recommend Tim Tuner , but Bankers can’t take a week off.
David Kennedy, or Jason Sands , but they the writers , if they choose to do this one.
Ill even chip in for the expenses of who ever .
I would like to think that Don , Bill , myself and Zach could all show up.
This is no different that a dyno test or a drag race ,
If the notice had of been more the we could have done it at the TS event , and use one truck, and each one install their cam with a blind dyno , and other events
In any case I’m in , and willing to send product to a third party , Like Tim , or who ever is picked. The cams will be delivered with instructions in plane boxes with manufactor markings ground off just A,B,C,D to Jason. he will not even know whos cam is whos
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jlibert
New member
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What everyone keeps missing is that we don't need the manufacturer's permission to do this test. However, it would be in the manufacturer's best interests to participate in this test. This thread should merely serve as an invitation to manufacturers that wish to oversee the testing of thier product.
-jp
-jp
Comp461 id like to your trailer test suggestion. Make it a overall road test that has a few hills to go up, some stop n go traffic, highway (entering and passing), fuel efficiency. again having the owner of the vehicle as the driver being the judge.
Great idea. Simple concept. Easy to see why cam builders wouldn't do it.
I know if it was something of mine that was being compared to others on this sort of thing, I would want to be right there doing the install, doing the testing, looking at the figures. Not to mention overseeing the competitions install, testing, and figures. With that said it would be near impossible to get several cam builders in one building for several weeks time.
Would like to see the results as much as anyone, but sometimes you just have to do your own research and use a little bit of gut instinct. To be honest, I have never heard anything bad about any of the cam companies in question here. They all seem to know what they are doing and it seems to be working for them. Can't we just leave it at that?
Personally I like the competition between the cams as it is. It keeps the price in check for the customers. What would happen if there was all of a sudden only one cam that everyone wanted? Price increase.
Competition and "not knowing" is sometimes a customers best friend.
J.D.
I know if it was something of mine that was being compared to others on this sort of thing, I would want to be right there doing the install, doing the testing, looking at the figures. Not to mention overseeing the competitions install, testing, and figures. With that said it would be near impossible to get several cam builders in one building for several weeks time.
Would like to see the results as much as anyone, but sometimes you just have to do your own research and use a little bit of gut instinct. To be honest, I have never heard anything bad about any of the cam companies in question here. They all seem to know what they are doing and it seems to be working for them. Can't we just leave it at that?
Personally I like the competition between the cams as it is. It keeps the price in check for the customers. What would happen if there was all of a sudden only one cam that everyone wanted? Price increase.
Competition and "not knowing" is sometimes a customers best friend.
J.D.
Diesel Nut
6 Speed 12V
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I am looking forward to hearing what some of the other cam manufactures have for opinions on this.
I am totally open to doing it blind, send the cams to David Kennedy for marking. I am sure he won't mind getting roped into that responsibility.
As for the used cam comments. Thats fine. You don't want to purchase a cam used for a test to support a charity. Ok, well, the manufactures can work that out. All I was offering was an option to help someone in need at the end of the test.
As for winners and losers, I agree. I think this test will show who has the right grind for the application the customer requires. There may be cams that excels at one thing but leaves some room elsewhere. You can't have everything. But the customer looking for a cam for a specific application will have a better understanding of which cam works best for him with the results from this test.
So, all the cam manufacturers have been bashing each other as to how brand X is better than brand Y. Put it out on the table.
I am totally open to doing it blind, send the cams to David Kennedy for marking. I am sure he won't mind getting roped into that responsibility.
As for the used cam comments. Thats fine. You don't want to purchase a cam used for a test to support a charity. Ok, well, the manufactures can work that out. All I was offering was an option to help someone in need at the end of the test.
As for winners and losers, I agree. I think this test will show who has the right grind for the application the customer requires. There may be cams that excels at one thing but leaves some room elsewhere. You can't have everything. But the customer looking for a cam for a specific application will have a better understanding of which cam works best for him with the results from this test.
So, all the cam manufacturers have been bashing each other as to how brand X is better than brand Y. Put it out on the table.
JFlagg
Gun for Hire
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I think this is a great idea... will it happen, who knows? Hell, if I had my own shop that sold all three I would just do the test regardless of what the manufacturers said. I don't think a person could go wrong with any of these cams, and personally I would any of them. I just happened to go with Greg's because he had treated me great in the past. That being siad I have Zach's springs in my truck... no experience with Don's products, but I would run a set of his injectors in a heartbeat LOL. I say bring on the comparison test!
Maybe when its done we could do another with turbos? Or clutches? Maybe injectors?
Maybe when its done we could do another with turbos? Or clutches? Maybe injectors?
COMP461
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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I am willing to be a part of this test ,because I know my cam program works , I know that when a customer spends the time, allowing me to help them selecting the correct grind for their application , the results will make them happy.
If I wasn’t completely sure of my product , I would not want to be a part of a test.
If on the other hand I was not sure of my product , or I had little or no real knowledge about the cams, in other words I was just a marketing arm of an out of the country cam company , with no real knowledge, or experience. If every thing I said or wrote was scripted by the puppet master across the northern border , then I would do a biased test of my competitors cam.
I would have a free lance writer for one of the smaller magazines, hungry for any story proclaimed that my cam made 200+ hp more them my competitors cam , and tell that lie as many times as possible , remember if you tell a lie often, some people start to believe it to be fact.
I would even advertise for trucks with my competitions products in it to do additional biased propaganda campaigns .
No diesel cam change alone makes an additional 200+ hp period . Not on this or any other planet , unless , the other cam was purposely installed in a fashion that make it loose 150 hp . Don M and I have had our disagreements , but his productis not bad , I like my stuff better , but 200+ hp
This is the constant cut and slash marketing that needs to stop , there is room for competitors in any market , it make the product more affordable, and breeds progress. This just got to me when a major vendor , compared this individual to Little doc, a guy I have tried to forget every existed , and to tell the truth it fits
I cant stoop that low ,
what is right is right , and the truth is good enough for me , so lets do this
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OT-OF-Here
Owner of the Black Beach
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Cam competition
Just another thought for ALL the participants.
ALL Cams need to be degreed in.
Just another thought for ALL the participants.
ALL Cams need to be degreed in.
COMP461
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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I would expect that ,
82ndsnpr
New member
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hey jason look i have dons cam and his springs so there is a helix we can use with his springs greg is stepping up to the plate thats two cams right there so lets see if the other boys want to play if not then lets find a cam and i can pitch in some cash to get it then for the test. i already know whos cam i want and will be installing anyway so i dont care if we gut the helix out of it and hell you have the truck already. i just want to see this go down.
Diesel Nut
6 Speed 12V
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Well, we have a customer with a Hamilton cam as well. So, if we wanted to patch one together we could, but I want to make this as honest as possible. I think this would be better set if the manufacturers just quit bickering and manned up.
82ndsnpr
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i agree but if we need to we can run the test and ship all the cams off and have them debadged and then sent back so they are all blind cams and then go from there. i just think its funny that so many ppl are saying the cam mfg have so much to lose, no one cam is going to come out dominate over the others they will all have there good and bad sides some will be better for high hp some for spool others for milage i dont think of it as a cam comp i see it as a which is the best cam for your ap test.
seeker1056
gear head
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thoughts
most if not all of the cams to be tested are regrinds. If not regrinds they are still flat tappet cams that have to fit within the confines of the stock cam journals.
There isnt a cam in the world gonna add 100+ hp all by itself, hell I would be surprised if it was much over 50 hp and probably not more than 10 or so hp than the next cam, òveral
The various cams, in a regrind will only vary a few thou in lift, a couple degrees in lobe seperation, and install for centreline a few degrees one way or the other.
truck wont run properly with a cam that varies very far from these parameters.
So - the fact is - in the same truck with the same equipment - each cam may do various things slightly differently - ie one may show more hp under the curve, while another shows more top end hp, or more bottem end hp etc.
While that may sound easy to define a winner - it isnt at all
What one person wants- `seat of the pants street drivin`another wants that every last hp so he can bragg online or to his buddies.
Does that make one cam a winner or loser - nope - just depends on what your lookin for
What a cam duel like this will do is for the first time give diesel guys a clear black n white cam card that gassers been enjoyin for years so we can make our own judgement on the right cam
Like myself - I am sure there are more than a few guys out there who understand cams and what they will do when advanced, retarded, lobe seperation is opened or closed up etc, and what cam ramps will do for duration and valve speed opening and closing
So really the benefit of this cam duel is to finally get cam specs out in the open instead of cloaked behind smoke n mirrors and the ``if I tell you I gotta kill you mentality``
most if not all of the cams to be tested are regrinds. If not regrinds they are still flat tappet cams that have to fit within the confines of the stock cam journals.
There isnt a cam in the world gonna add 100+ hp all by itself, hell I would be surprised if it was much over 50 hp and probably not more than 10 or so hp than the next cam, òveral
The various cams, in a regrind will only vary a few thou in lift, a couple degrees in lobe seperation, and install for centreline a few degrees one way or the other.
truck wont run properly with a cam that varies very far from these parameters.
So - the fact is - in the same truck with the same equipment - each cam may do various things slightly differently - ie one may show more hp under the curve, while another shows more top end hp, or more bottem end hp etc.
While that may sound easy to define a winner - it isnt at all
What one person wants- `seat of the pants street drivin`another wants that every last hp so he can bragg online or to his buddies.
Does that make one cam a winner or loser - nope - just depends on what your lookin for
What a cam duel like this will do is for the first time give diesel guys a clear black n white cam card that gassers been enjoyin for years so we can make our own judgement on the right cam
Like myself - I am sure there are more than a few guys out there who understand cams and what they will do when advanced, retarded, lobe seperation is opened or closed up etc, and what cam ramps will do for duration and valve speed opening and closing
So really the benefit of this cam duel is to finally get cam specs out in the open instead of cloaked behind smoke n mirrors and the ``if I tell you I gotta kill you mentality``
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COMP461
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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- 4,009
Not all of the cams will be regrinds , I use both regrinds and Cummins UGL cores , in fact all of us use exactly the same blank. There are some Chinese’s core , like the Engine power cams that sells , , but they are good fence post. So we can put that myth to rest.
A cam can make a huge difference , 200 hp no way by it self , but a cam is a critical part of any extreme build, over look it , and the longevity of the engine your building becomes a head gasket , and piston fest. The ability to move air thru these engines is what makes them run , fuel is the easy part.
As far as these cams being only a few degrees , and thousands differenes ,
I have cam doctor digital files on almost all of the cams involved and the lift is from .256 lobe lift to .305 on the intake this is a lot on a street cam, the duration is from 170 to 192 @ .050 intake lobe lift and 205 to 220 @ .050 lobe lift on the exhust side .
The lobe separation angle of the stock Common rail number of 98 , most 12 valve 102 and 24 valves vide 108
.
I gring from 102 on small inexpensive tow cams using CR cores to 114 on big single charger engines use to light the charger , the MaxSpool 2.5++ is 110 .
Contrary to the propaganda put out, about opening the exhaust valve early and killing power , this is completely untrue.
None of the street cams that anyone is using opens sooner then 50 degrees @ .050 lobe lift before BDC on the power stroke.
So that is a big untrue statement , the pressure rise , and power making push on the piston is over in a diesel at 50 degrees ATDC and non existent by 60 ATDC . Remember the piston is now excelarating down the bore and the combustion chamber is expanding so rapidly that the combustion process can not keep up. Now before some says that a diesel makes power longer then a gas motor , that is true , the number for a gas engine are 20 to 25 degrees after , basically a pop, where as a diesel is a little longer lasting pop.
The person thats continues to spouting these false facts infact if he would call his knowledge base, and look as the cam doctor files , are only a few degrees apart, the secret is in opening the exhaust valve slightly faster . This acceleration rate is still no where new the limit of the valve train, and all cams involved have accelaration rates much grator on the intake side of the equation.
On race cams I have lobe lift of .360 to . 390 and with the new 24 valve steel rocker with high ratio’s the push for higher and higher lifts is on.
The gains that will be seen in the next few years in all out motors , both drag and pulling will involve innovations in the valve train components. These are nothing new , and similar to the same evolutionary process that Pro Stock and Comp engines have been going thru the last 20 years.
Forget making a replacement rocker , start from a blank sheet of paper , I have been toying with these rocker system with both Jesel , and T&D parts for 5 years.
If this cam test happens and its going to I have spoken to the magazines , and its in the queue now to happen. Ad if this will be a test of all the company’s now around , and possibly several of each grinds .
The time for propaganda and lies is over , one more of these blatant slash and stab campaigns , and ill post cam doctor digital prints of the grinds involved , and the results will speak for themselves , in fact is amazing how close to each other , and almost a statically copy of each other the cams involved in the scham article and test claiming 200+ hp difference. Question is which one came first and which one is memorex.
A cam can make a huge difference , 200 hp no way by it self , but a cam is a critical part of any extreme build, over look it , and the longevity of the engine your building becomes a head gasket , and piston fest. The ability to move air thru these engines is what makes them run , fuel is the easy part.
As far as these cams being only a few degrees , and thousands differenes ,
I have cam doctor digital files on almost all of the cams involved and the lift is from .256 lobe lift to .305 on the intake this is a lot on a street cam, the duration is from 170 to 192 @ .050 intake lobe lift and 205 to 220 @ .050 lobe lift on the exhust side .
The lobe separation angle of the stock Common rail number of 98 , most 12 valve 102 and 24 valves vide 108
.
I gring from 102 on small inexpensive tow cams using CR cores to 114 on big single charger engines use to light the charger , the MaxSpool 2.5++ is 110 .
Contrary to the propaganda put out, about opening the exhaust valve early and killing power , this is completely untrue.
None of the street cams that anyone is using opens sooner then 50 degrees @ .050 lobe lift before BDC on the power stroke.
So that is a big untrue statement , the pressure rise , and power making push on the piston is over in a diesel at 50 degrees ATDC and non existent by 60 ATDC . Remember the piston is now excelarating down the bore and the combustion chamber is expanding so rapidly that the combustion process can not keep up. Now before some says that a diesel makes power longer then a gas motor , that is true , the number for a gas engine are 20 to 25 degrees after , basically a pop, where as a diesel is a little longer lasting pop.
The person thats continues to spouting these false facts infact if he would call his knowledge base, and look as the cam doctor files , are only a few degrees apart, the secret is in opening the exhaust valve slightly faster . This acceleration rate is still no where new the limit of the valve train, and all cams involved have accelaration rates much grator on the intake side of the equation.
On race cams I have lobe lift of .360 to . 390 and with the new 24 valve steel rocker with high ratio’s the push for higher and higher lifts is on.
The gains that will be seen in the next few years in all out motors , both drag and pulling will involve innovations in the valve train components. These are nothing new , and similar to the same evolutionary process that Pro Stock and Comp engines have been going thru the last 20 years.
Forget making a replacement rocker , start from a blank sheet of paper , I have been toying with these rocker system with both Jesel , and T&D parts for 5 years.
If this cam test happens and its going to I have spoken to the magazines , and its in the queue now to happen. Ad if this will be a test of all the company’s now around , and possibly several of each grinds .
The time for propaganda and lies is over , one more of these blatant slash and stab campaigns , and ill post cam doctor digital prints of the grinds involved , and the results will speak for themselves , in fact is amazing how close to each other , and almost a statically copy of each other the cams involved in the scham article and test claiming 200+ hp difference. Question is which one came first and which one is memorex.
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zstroken
For $$$ your name here
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- Sep 27, 2006
- Messages
- 23,151
You guys all stink, I know which stuff is the best, you don't have all of the cam data anyway. You couldn't post the stuff. You wouldn't post the stuff.
oke:Well go ahead and post the stuff:hehe: