Dirty Common Rail Injectors

[Mark Nixon]

I have no dog in his fight, but I agree, any time someone comes up with a machining procedure, or a "trick", you can bet there's many others out there who will catch it and duplicate it.
That's what I love about motor sports, chances are if you think it's the latest and greatest, it turns out that it's ancient news.

In my view, the whole of this topic is one person's views.
All those who are interested want is tangible proof of the opinions being shared.

Mark.

 

[slasorv]

So what happened when the bbi's were swapped?

 

[Purn1973]

So what happened when the bbi's were swapped?

^^^ This!!

op:

 

[estrada5.9]

I have no dog in his fight, but I agree, any time someone comes up with a machining procedure, or a "trick", you can bet there's many others out there who will catch it and duplicate it.
That's what I love about motor sports, chances are if you think it's the latest and greatest, it turns out that it's ancient news.

In my view, the whole of this topic is one person's views.
All those who are interested want is tangible proof of the opinions being shared.

Mark.

The duplicating was my thought. Brand loyalty is great and all but so is affordability. Maybe I'm just too cheap at the moment. If I could pay a shop to legally duplicate the product at 2/3's the cost and get similar results I wouldn't lose any sleep.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

Quick question for you Brian:

Is this a patented or patent pending design on the body modifications?

Thanks

Thank You Mr Estrada!
BBI does not change the functional concept of the injector, so it is nothing that can be patented.

 

[MAXTORQ]

Thank You Mr Estrada!
BBI does not change the functional concept of the injector, so it is nothing that can be patented.

Quote: Body mods are not being duplicated by anyone else, nor can they for certain reasons, nor are the standard internal mods that one will have with all the BBi Injectors. BBi is the only one with this technology and equipment who is willing and able to offer this kind of Injector to the public for our Common Rail Dodge Cummins pickups. Quote




Not sure I understand your thought process here.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

We arent looking for different. We are looking for better.

Can you post the test results that show the difference at higher RPM?

Indeed! Here is a link to the comparison of BBi 1's, with and without the High RPM body mods. This is on a mild truck with a single stock CP-3.

http://www.bigbanginjection.com/performance/

That there shows the difference the mods make.

Thank you!

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

You are comparing two different things, a smaller nozzle operating at the same pressure cannot flow more than a larger nozzle, however an injector with a lower flowing nozzle could make more power if the cone angle were different, as well if it had a better(quicker) injection rate. Although I agree with some of your statements, you seem to often miss the actual facts behind the results.

If you are comparing nozzle flow only, AT the same pressure, the larger nozzle clearly flows more volume.
Once said nozzles are attached to the injector body, the rules change rather dramatically.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

do you have flow rates for each stage? curious to see stages 1 through 4. and curious if you send the flow sheets along with the injectors when they do go out the door. I see the rest of the stages listed, thanks.

Mike, indeed we do send out these sheets with each set and have from the start.



For any of you Gentlemen who wish to view the injection quantity mapping certificates I am placing them here for your convenience.



1’s http://sourceautomotive.biz/images/BBI%20Injectors/Test%20Certificate%20MY03-S1-0005.pdf



2.s http://sourceautomotive.biz/images/BBI%20Injectors/Test%20Certificate%20MY03-S2-0003.pdf



3.s http://sourceautomotive.biz/images/BBI%20Injectors/Test%20Certificate%20MY03-S3-0003.pdf




4.s with the standard High RPM Body Mods. http://sourceautomotive.biz/images/BBI%20Injectors/test%20certificate%20MY03-S4-0003.pdf



Here is a link with info you Gentlemen can look at in your leisure for more information. http://smartyresource.com/BBiInjectors.aspx

Hope this helps!

 

[Smokem]

Once said nozzles are attached to the injector body, the rules change rather dramatically.

Rate cannot compensate for lack of flow. You can compensate with pressure, but this is detrimental in itself. There are some inherent drawbacks to the raw flow capability of a Common Rail system, and it has been as of late for them to start making real headway, and I assure you it is with a far higher flowing nozzle than what you claim. Also, you are not the only, nor first company to be using the "high RPM body mods".

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

So does BBI know for a fact that other builders have not bought a set of BBI's and with the knowledge and know how of a few big names reverse engineered for lack of a better term duplicated the same mods, I mean I'm sure there is no pat on the mods. Is there like asked previously? I am in market soon for a set....

My personal belief is that other builders MUST be looking @ BBi attempting to determine what we are doing differently.
What do we know for a fact ? That our injectors outperform any other injectors we've ever put our hands on.

 

[takedown95]

Indeed! Here is a link to the comparison of BBi 1's, with and without the High RPM body mods. This is on a mild truck with a single stock CP-3.

http://www.bigbanginjection.com/performance/

That there shows the difference the mods make.

Thank you!

I wanted to see the flow difference.

 

[Joesixpack]

My personal belief is that other builders MUST be looking @ BBi attempting to determine what we are doing differently.
What do we know for a fact ? That our injectors outperform any other injectors we've ever put our hands on.

It's great that you guys are putting the effort into R&D and I can't say for sure on the 5.9 injectors but I can assure you we've had 6.7 injectors with the quick lift mods for 3-4 years now.

They flow a full 100mm3 per stroke at 1800us to boot. Then we throw 220+Mpa at them and they hack it.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

Rate cannot compensate for lack of flow. You can compensate with pressure, but this is detrimental in itself. There are some inherent drawbacks to the raw flow capability of a Common Rail system, and it has been as of late for them to start making real headway, and I assure you it is with a far higher flowing nozzle than what you claim. Also, you are not the only, nor first company to be using the "high RPM body mods".

Operational rates can and do make a hugh difference regarding flow. Yet it is just one of many factors effecting same. You may have misunderstood, as I never claimed we were the 1st, or only company making modifications.
We are however doing things that are industry 1sts, and EXTREMELY difficult to duplicate.

 

[Smokem]

Operational rates can and do make a huge difference regarding flow. Yet it is just one of many factors effecting same.

I think you are not understanding what is creating power on the user's end, because your operational rates are not all that stellar when compared to a mechanical pumping system. The true advantage of common rail is the operating pressure and the ability to vary timing/duration non dependent of engine RPM.

 

[Striper]

You may have misunderstood, as I never claimed we were the 1st, or only company making modifications.

Body mods are not being duplicated by anyone else, nor can they for certain reasons, nor are the standard internal mods that one will have with all the BBi Injectors. BBi is the only one with this technology and equipment who is willing and able to offer this kind of Injector to the public for our Common Rail Dodge Cummins pickups.

op:op:op:

 

[Joesixpack]

EDIT:

It's great that you guys are putting the effort into R&D and I can't say for sure on the 5.9 injectors but I can assure you we've had 6.7 injectors with the quick lift mods for 3-4 years now.

They flow a full 100mm3 per stroke more than the BB stage 4's at 1800us to boot. Then we throw 220+Mpa at them and they hack it.

I read some data a while back that compared pintle speed between a mechanical injector and a generation 3 piezo common rail injector and the mechanical was almost twice as fast.

As to rate, consider the BB stage 4, I want double the rate.

 

[MAXTORQ]

Compared to whom?

H E double hockey sticks , I've been working on the Cummins power-plant ever since they put it into the Dodge in late 88. Doesn't make me the first to do it. with that being said I'm EXTREMELY difficult to duplicate!


If your going to sell the product sell the product, but quite sounding like a friggen coached parrot.

 

[CBlack]

While I understand what Mr. BrianAtSmarty is doing, he doesn't explain the BBi's very well.

I suggest that anyone who wants more technical answers to email BBi directly. That's what I did. After all, Smarty is just a distributor/retailer for them as is Source.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

BBi rates their injector flow identically to Bosch, the manufacturer, who else does same?
Our MY03 Stage 1 @ a nominal 30% increase in flow, compared to stock, measured in the same manner as the OEM, is capable of over 800 rwhp. Someone elses product requires a 100% over to do same? Is this correct? Something tells me we ain't comparing apples to apples here.


This "30%" over injector, capable of over 800 rwhp, is also willing & able to be used as a replacement injector set in a bone stock truck. Infommercial ? Or fact ? It IS the latter, as I personally run these in my own truck. Biased ? I sure as hell am. I've played with these trucks in the performance arena for over a decade & have never experienced anything like them. I feel a lot like "the boy who cried wolf". While history tends to repeat itself, that is NOT the case with BBi. Looking back over the last decade, new injector suppliers seem to "come out of the woodwork" every 6 - 18 months. Always someone new coming out, with bigger & better stuff. Seemingly a tough spot for me, as not only am I stating these are better, but I'm claiming they are WAY better. Claims seemingly tough to believe, yet I am speaking the truth.


The Stage 2's, 72% increase compared to stock, are advertised as capable of up to 1000 rwhp. I've witnessed these make 986 corrected & 1015 uncorrected. Size matters? Sure! Based on these values, these facts, there's a heck of a lot more to it, than just size. Have I mentioned that any size of BBi's, makes a Cummins idle & run like no other Cummins I've ever seen or heard? I've personally owned over 20 of these trucks, Had Several company trucks. I’ve driven & ridden in dozens more of them. The way that the engine starts, runs & performs is freakishly smooth & quiet. We've just over 150 sets in the field. If you haven't had the pleasure of the BBi experience, I highly suggest that you do so.

Some of you Gentlemen are of the opinion that I am being “vague” with my explanations of these Injectors. Well, that is the way I have to operate. I can not tell “everything”. Every manufacturer has their proprietary info. That’s just the way it is.

Thank you Guys!