JSP's Triples via GTX4508's/Tial stainless housings.

GTX4508rtriplesairtoairpressureloss_zps9566d0d0.jpg


Another tuning session on the same injectors and some more data to share. Found some more power, again fuel only. Still in reference to the 64/480, just because it makes me grin.

Added a sensor before the charge air cooler, and the real point of interest on this graph is the 8psi pressure drop across the air to air charge air cooler!!! 8psi at 100+ is huge. So that just got moved to the top of the list.

SecArP is before the cooler X10
ManArP is Intake manifold X10
 
at 100psi there is a BUNCH of flow going through there, bound to be some restrictions. lol
 
Air to water, problem solved. God I can't wait to see you really turn this thing up. I mean you only have another 400+ hp worth of air.:)
 
What is the temperature drop at the same time as the pressure drop is occurring? It may not be as bad as it looks at first glance.
 
Headed out on a short road trip and don't have the data with me but there is still a huge temperature drop across the IC. The pressure drop calculates to a 8.5% loss in density and must result in higher charge air temp/drive pressure and pumping loss. I'd have to pull some reference material to guesstimate a power potential from reducing the bottleneck.

Edit, actually if you have a 8.5% density drop if I calc'd it right should be ~ a 8.5% power loss to the theoretical zero drop. (Never would be zero)
 
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That would be one big water to air cooler... especially with your limited space under the hood. A precision PT2000 would go nice on top of the valve cover with a hood scoop and would make for some very short plumbing
 
Problem is at the working pressure he is now at there are not a lot of choices. Many, many air to water units are only rated for 50 psi max. Sure you can run them higher once in awhile but with this level of air on tap and going to be used, you've got to be real careful or it gets real expensive, real fast. You can only get out what you put in, and if the mass flow at the exit is equal to the mass flow at the entrance, your stuck.
 
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Diesel Tech said:
Problem is at the working pressure he is now at there are not a lot of choices. Many, many air to water units are only rated for 50 psi max. Sure you can run them higher once in awhile but with this level of air on tap and going to be used, you've got to be real careful or it gets real expensive, real fast. You can only get out what you put in, and if the mass flow at the exit is equal to the mass flow at the entrance, your stuck.
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I agree you can't gain mass, but he's clearly losing quite a bit through IC right now. I wouldn't ever consider using some crappy off the shelf 50 psi air to water IC for a build like this. It just makes sense to have one custom built and pressure tested for this application, I mean good lord look at what he has in this build already!
 
If the mass in equals the mass out then there is nothing wrong with the intercooler and the pressure drop is due to the reduction in temperature. Now if the turbo's had an unlimited supply of air the turbo's would speed up and increase the mass in, but I've been at this point many a time over the last 30+ years of doing this and it's one that get's over-looked by a lot of people, that assume the pressure drop is bad. I've done it enough times myself when first looking at the data.
 
Diesel Tech said:
Problem is at the working pressure he is now at there are not a lot of choices. Many, many air to water units are only rated for 50 psi max. Sure you can run them higher once in awhile but with this level of air on tap and going to be used, you've got to be real careful or it gets real expensive, real fast. You can only get out what you put in, and if the mass flow at the exit is equal to the mass flow at the entrance, your stuck.
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I highly doubt he would run frozen boost intercooler on his truck if he even considered a a2w setup. Most likely something from garrett or bell and those cores are rated for well over 3 times that amount of pressure.
 
Diesel Tech said:
If the mass in equals the mass out then there is nothing wrong with the intercooler and the pressure drop is due to the reduction in temperature. Now if the turbo's had an unlimited supply of air the turbo's would speed up and increase the mass in, but I've been at this point many a time over the last 30+ years of doing this and it's one that get's over-looked by a lot of people, that assume the pressure drop is bad. I've done it enough times myself when first looking at the data.
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A pressure drop like that shows up as a loss in hp on a pulling tractor.
 
Yeah Bell will likely be the first call. That was in the original plan, air to water for both stages but it took so long to get to here.

This air to air is an HTT and has 2.4" ID in and out. 1500hp was never on the table when they designed it. Maybe a heart to heart with HTT would reveal the flow area of the core and larger in and out ports would make a good difference.

Even at that, that core is just not enough for the heat load. A short blast on the dyno it has enough of a "battery" but a sustained pull would result in some excessive IAT's exaberated by the flow restriction.
 
Joesixpack said:
Yeah Bell will likely be the first call. That was in the original plan, air to water for both stages but it took so long to get to here.

This air to air is an HTT and has 2.4" ID in and out. 1500hp was never on the table when they designed it. Maybe a heart to heart with HTT would reveal the flow area of the core and larger in and out ports would make a good difference.

Even at that, that core is just not enough for the heat load. A short blast on the dyno it has enough of a "battery" but a sustained pull would result in some excessive IAT's exaberated by the flow restriction.
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What would happen if you ran a garden hose of cold water over it during a dyno pull?
 
Ever thought about playing with water injection. It would be really tight to get a cooler mounted between stages unless theres more room there than it looks or maybe just don't run a hood lol. I wouldnt want to go and add a ton of piping just to add a2w.
 
It would have to fit in the area where the current air to air is.

Water injection is actually on the agenda right next. Have the tank and pump back on the bench from previous testing. Always pulled power before with water.
 
Diesel Tech said:
If the mass in equals the mass out then there is nothing wrong with the intercooler and the pressure drop is due to the reduction in temperature. Now if the turbo's had an unlimited supply of air the turbo's would speed up and increase the mass in, but I've been at this point many a time over the last 30+ years of doing this and it's one that get's over-looked by a lot of people, that assume the pressure drop is bad. I've done it enough times myself when first looking at the data.
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I agree that the pressure drop could be from the drop in the temperature, however, I do question the mass-in vs. mass-out.

The mass-in vs. mass-out would have to be equal, otherwise pressure would continue to rise on the inlet side as a function of time assuming turbo compressor flow remained constant.

The real question I have: Is the largest restriction the cylinder head, or the charge air cooler?
 
The final restriction must be the cylinder head and valve events to the cylinders as measured by manifold pressure.

However I don't buy into a pressure drop due to cooling the air, it's counter intuitive. We want cool air without a pressure drop. +density + density.

A charge air cooler's efficiency will be a function of the temperature drop and pressure loss due to flow restriction.
 
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