SSR New Release Info and Results Thread...

[JasonCzerak]

Jason, this is just me thinking out loud, but with the size of your injectors, that's not enough rail pressure....that's where that smoke show is coming from.

You're bouncing around alot on these settings and it makes it tough to dial in any one specific parameter. 1 - 2 number changes on each parameter and make a pull, small change, make a pull, small change, make a pull.

One hour on the dyno won't dial it in. Hell, just with the time it takes to re-flash and let the the turbos cool a bit, you can only get about 6 good pulls in an hour and still be consitent.

If I'm tuning, I PLAN on AT LEAST 3 hours at a time. The first time tuning this SSR took me almost 6 hours. BUT, it pays off in the end. You're not screwing around trying this and that for weeks on end trying to do it on the road.

Bit the bullet, schedule the time and READ the dyno sheets and note the changes on each pull.

I spent about 6 hours between Friday and Saturday on the dyno. Saturday's dyno was spent more or less 1 or 2 numbers at a time. Tho, on the dyno jet with no brake and my first time driving on a dyno jet, there were 2 learning curves right there.

I plan to see what marco fixes and updates in the next release and get a few more hours on the dyno dynamics. We'll need to adjust the rate at which it lets the truck accelerate for sure and I'll start higher up in boost, like near 58psi in 6th. I should have my water injection re-installed soon too!

However, I do enjoy trying different approaches. to be honest, running a large low end duration number is the only thing left that I didn't do to see how things run. And it just happens to run very well considering the other combinations I've tried.

As far as the rail pressure numbers, I'll bump them back up. I need to make a few highway pulls and watch EGT and rail. But the rail hang is unacceptable, if the motor can't de-accelerate at a reasonable rate, I need to lower that rail and take what ever loss in hp comes with it.

What I think I happened with the smoke show was around 2800rpm (or so) is what seems to be a consistent transition to HL mode. WOT or not. power picks up at that point. with my last setting I was WOT at 2200rpm on boost and let it pull until I could and it picked up power suddenly. when I let off it was over 3000. Just like in the dyno graphs. Now this occurs even at very very very light throttle if you run the rpm band, normally a puff of smoke shoots out. I'm sure that's what happened because I was on my way off the throttle and looked back there was a small cloud

More playing around to come.

 

[JasonCzerak]

What I was doing with the torque management was trying to overfuel it bit on the bottom so I could spray it off the line until the big charger lit.

What I was doing was launching 1st, hitting 2nd and immediately locking the TC and spraying it until the boost hit 70 psi and then I'd cut the nitrous.

Bumping up the TQM management seemed to give it just enough overfuel to use the nitrous on the bottom. When I had the TQM set lower, when I'd leave the smoke cleared by the 60 ft mark.

heh, why not just run the spray all the way to the end?

 

[Cummin-a-long]

heh, why not just run the spray all the way to the end?

I don't have enough fuel once that 80 is lit. Once it comes on, it completely clears the smoke and I'd just be wasting nitrous. I need to bump my injectors from 37 LPH to about 45 LPH and I'd be golden.

If there's no smoke at all, the nitrous won't make any more power.

All I use it for is getting on top of the big charger faster.

Even at the price I get nitrous for, it's still pricey. It's like rollin coal all over the street.....that crap gets expensive.

 

[Cummin-a-long]

IWhat I think I happened with the smoke show was around 2800rpm (or so) is what seems to be a consistent transition to HL mode. WOT or not. power picks up at that point. with my last setting I was WOT at 2200rpm on boost and let it pull until I could and it picked up power suddenly. when I let off it was over 3000. Just like in the dyno graphs. Now this occurs even at very very very light throttle if you run the rpm band, normally a puff of smoke shoots out. I'm sure that's what happened because I was on my way off the throttle and looked back there was a small cloud

More playing around to come.

That's what I'm seeing too. Approx 3000 RPM's seems to be the transition point.

That's why I say focus on the LL settings and don't try to do it on the street.

Start out with the High RPM setting set to stock so it cuts at 3200. Once you have the LL settings dialed in, turn the RPM's up and work on the HL settings.

Trying to dial in the LL settings on the street is a waste.

 

[JasonCzerak]

That's what I'm seeing too. Approx 3000 RPM's seems to be the transition point.

That's why I say focus on the LL settings and don't try to do it on the street.

Start out with the High RPM setting set to stock so it cuts at 3200. Once you have the LL settings dialed in, turn the RPM's up and work on the HL settings.

Trying to dial in the LL settings on the street is a waste.

I was very close with my first try. I'll get close with my second I'm sure. Apparently I have a very well tuned butt dyno. LOL.

 

[gecoveyc]

Thanks for the info Jason and Cummin-a-long. I'm still playing around a bit. When ya'll say mine needs more timing and duration than Jason's, how much higher do ya'll mean? 2-3 levels higher or like 6-7 levels higher? Also what are the signs of detonation exactly?

Keep up the good work with all of you guy's research and trying out tons of different combinations with this programmer. It's really helpful

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Thanks for the info Jason and Cummin-a-long. I'm still playing around a bit. When ya'll say mine needs more timing and duration than Jason's, how much higher do ya'll mean? 2-3 levels higher or like 6-7 levels higher? Also what are the signs of detonation exactly?

Keep up the good work with all of you guy's research and trying out tons of different combinations with this programmer. It's really helpful

Each trucks combo is going to be different. What I found with MY truck, MY setup and MY boost levels, is that my truck did not like timing higher than 35.

Too much timing sounds like someone poured a bag of marbles in the motor. You'll know it right away if you go too far.

Once you start getting up around 30 on the timing, you'll only want to come up about 2 at a time on the timing. If you take a big swing and go to say 40, you take a risk of really over advancing it and blowing a head gasket or even worse bending a rod.

As soon as you hear a little timing rattle, you want to back off 2 - 3 numbers.

Depending on the load on the engine, you may need to back off a little more once you get it on the road / track and smash on it.

When you get it on the dyno, work on your rail pressure FIRST and leave the other settings low. Once that it where you want it, start adding some duration until you're getting some smoke from it, then bring in the timing.

You'll see saw back an forth a bit on timing and duration because as you advance the timing, you'll have a few more millliseconds to of duration to work with.

Come up on the timing until you get that little bit of detonation, back off 2 -3 numbers and dial in the duration until smoke and EGT's are under control.

 

[gecoveyc]

Each trucks combo is going to be different. What I found with MY truck, MY setup and MY boost levels, is that my truck did not like timing higher than 35.

Too much timing sounds like someone poured a bag of marbles in the motor. You'll know it right away if you go too far.

Once you start getting up around 30 on the timing, you'll only want to come up about 2 at a time on the timing. If you take a big swing and go to say 40, you take a risk of really over advancing it and blowing a head gasket or even worse bending a rod.

As soon as you hear a little timing rattle, you want to back off 2 - 3 numbers.

Depending on the load on the engine, you may need to back off a little more once you get it on the road / track and smash on it.

When you get it on the dyno, work on your rail pressure FIRST and leave the other settings low. Once that it where you want it, start adding some duration until you're getting some smoke from it, then bring in the timing.

You'll see saw back an forth a bit on timing and duration because as you advance the timing, you'll have a few more millliseconds to of duration to work with.

Come up on the timing until you get that little bit of detonation, back off 2 -3 numbers and dial in the duration until smoke and EGT's are under control.

Thank you for the information. By bag of marbles to you mean the motor starts kind of lopping, popping, chugging type stuff? Like the engine is hopping? And if it is doing that how do I adjust my settings to get it to stop?

There's no timing rattle but when I first started the truck this morning under light pedal accealeration, the motor seemed like it was choking a a little bit and hopping kind of but when the motor warmed a little bit after going a couple blocks it stopped.

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Just to understand how minute of a time frame you're talking about when talking timing advance and duration, here's what you need to look at.

Let's say you're turning 3200 RPM's.

That gives you .01875 seconds per revolution. That translates into .05208 milliseconds per degree.

Working with that, let's say you have 17 degrees of timing advance and have a total duration of 107 degrees. That's only 5.57 milliseconds worth of usable duration.

Let's say you advance that to 21 degress. Adding 4 degrees of timing now gives you 5.7 milliseconds of duration.

That .13 millliseconds of advance may be all you need to cause detonation.

This has always been one thing I want to know when working on a tune.....WHAT ARE THE THESE NUMBERS?

If I bump up 2 - 3 numbers, just how much am I advancing / retarding a given value.

Just knowing what the REAL values are would make dialing in the tune to a sepcific vehicle that much easier. If I know I have a given cam, XX:1 compression, XX boost, XX temperature, it gives you a better idea of what you can do and what you can't.

I may be able to run one setup at sea level and 90 degrees that just won't work at 4500 ft and 70 degrees.

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Thank you for the information. By bag of marbles to you mean the motor starts kind of lopping, popping, chugging type stuff? Like the engine is hopping? And if it is doing that how do I adjust my settings to get it to stop?

No, what it'll sound like is a friggin machine gun under the hood.

Or, you'll just get one loud bang and then a whole bunch of bad things.

 

[docta]

Just wanted to say thanks! (to Jason as well). As somebody who doesn't know that much about diesel tuning, you guys have been a huge help in trying to get my truck dialed in

Just to understand how minute of a time frame you're talking about when talking timing advance and duration, here's what you need to look at.

Let's say you're turning 3200 RPM's.

That gives you .01875 seconds per revolution. That translates into .05208 milliseconds per degree.

Working with that, let's say you have 17 degrees of timing advance and have a total duration of 107 degrees. That's only 5.57 milliseconds worth of usable duration.

Let's say you advance that to 21 degress. Adding 4 degrees of timing now gives you 5.7 milliseconds of duration.

That .13 millliseconds of advance may be all you need to cause detonation.

This has always been one thing I want to know when working on a tune.....WHAT ARE THE THESE NUMBERS?

If I bump up 2 - 3 numbers, just how much am I advancing / retarding a given value.

Just knowing what the REAL values are would make dialing in the tune to a sepcific vehicle that much easier. If I know I have a given cam, XX:1 compression, XX boost, XX temperature, it gives you a better idea of what you can do and what you can't.

I may be able to run one setup at sea level and 90 degrees that just won't work at 4500 ft and 70 degrees.

 

[gecoveyc]

No, what it'll sound like is a friggin machine gun under the hood.

Or, you'll just get one loud bang and then a whole bunch of bad things.

Ok I haven't run into that yet but in case I do what is the right direction to take in order to get that to stop?

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Real simple....reduce the timing a few numbers.

With timing and duration, you just have to keep in mind that if you advance timing 1 degree, that's also 1 more degree of duration you can add on the other end. If you don't, you're removing that fraction of time from making power.

Put in too much duration and you'll have a bunch of smoke and high EGT's.

All you want to see at full song is light grey haze and you know you have it just slightly overfueled and you're making full use of your turbo(s) but not so much that you're putting EGT's through the roof. If your exhaust is totally clean at full throttle, you don't have enough duration and you're leaving power on the table......fine line.

 

[gecoveyc]

Simple enough to me. That's what I was guessing but just wanted to double check. One more prolly stupid question with an easy answer. But say it does the machine gun type thing under Light Load but doesn't after you give it more pedal, does that mean reduce the LLT numbers? Also vice-versa, with it only doing it on WOT would you reduce the HHT?

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Yes, the Low Load settings seem to effect everything up to approx 3000 RPM's, so anything in that range is gonna be LL settings. If it's over 3000, you're looking at HL settings.

Again, these are what my dyno runs initially looked like. All of this crap below 3000 RPM's was weeded out on the LL settings. Above 3000 RPM's and the peak numbers were with the HL settings.......

This was AFTER adjusting ONLY the LL settings.....

This was aftering doing the HL settings.....

These were my settings and notes during each run. Some runs were multiple pulls to confirm and aren't noted.

The more data we get, the more we can see what is working and not working on given setups.

 

[gecoveyc]

Thank you very much for all of the info once again. It is very helpful and coming in handy while trying to get these initial settings dialed in. I guess I can't really compare to the High RPM settins yet because I'm not running them yet. So let me ask you this. What all do you need to have done to the motor to support the High RPM setting. I have headstuds, hamilton valve springs and pushrods sitting here ready to be installed. Is there something else you need to get the engine ready for 4000RPM?

 

[Big Swole]

Rich, You are my Hero Buddy!! lol

Nice work on the tuning details!

You never spare anything with this stuff.. I only wished I had your skillz!

Thanks man... I'll come see ya soon for those loops..

Thank you very much for all of the info once again. It is very helpful and coming in handy while trying to get these initial settings dialed in. I guess I can't really compare to the High RPM settins yet because I'm not running them yet. So let me ask you this. What all do you need to have done to the motor to support the High RPM setting. I have headstuds, hamilton valve springs and pushrods sitting here ready to be installed. Is there something else you need to get the engine ready for 4000RPM?

Springs , push tubes, and studs should be fine for the higher rpm's... Pretty much all I got too..

Having balanced bottom end will be a plus for high rpm's too though..

 

[gecoveyc]

Rich, You are my Hero Buddy!! lol

Nice work on the tuning details!

You never spare anything with this stuff.. I only wished I had your skillz!

Thanks man... I'll come see ya soon for those loops..





Springs , push tubes, and studs should be fine for the higher rpm's... Pretty much all I got too..

Having balanced bottom end will be a plus for high rpm's too though..

Thank you sir. Hopefully I'll have all of my stuff put on within the next month. Then I get to tackle this tuning game all over again with twins and the cam ha

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Thanks man... I'll come see ya soon for those loops..

Just give me a holler. I have surgery tomorrow, so I'll be down for a few, but all we really need is a few hours to get ya done.

Springs , push tubes, and studs should be fine for the higher rpm's... Pretty much all I got too..

Having balanced bottom end will be a plus for high rpm's too though..

You ain't kidding! Here's the difference between my balanced and factory crank.

Has less imbalance at 10,000 RPM's now than it did at 4,000 before balancing.

 

[STR8-6]

x2 for the ACTUAL timing values on the SSR

and p.s. NOBODY spins a crank to 10,000 rpm when balancing, those are calculated numbers