upgraded ecm for the vp's!

Somewhere, deep inside the silicone mess, is a microscopic relay that needs to be defeated. It has to be that simple. Somebody find the little *****.
 
ThrottleJockey said:
You're forgetting the electronically controled fueling and timing.
Click to expand...



You're forgetting the mechanical injection aspect of the pump. There is a rotary cam inside the pump that pushes plungers, one lump on the cam lobe = one injection event. There is a "bypass" solenoid that controls when the injection event starts and ends, however, regardless of what the solenoid does, there is a point in time before and after each injection event when the cam lobe is before and/or after the plunger that pushes actual fuel to the injection line therefore you get one injection event.

This isn't a common rail injection system where fuel pressure is always present at the injectors and multiple injection events are possible. This is a one-shot-wonder.

The easiest way to produce the most fueling, up to the mechanical limit of the pump is to take over control of the bypass solenoid. With the Adrenaline or similar fueling box, you can fire the bypass solenoid (which actually closes the bypass circuit) before the cam even makes it to the plunger so that the very nanosecond there is enough pressure to pop the injector open, it starts to fuel and then the very second the cam rotates to where the plunger falls and pressure drops below pop pressure the injector closes.

Does the above method produce crude fuel delivery, sure, but that is the absolute mechanical limit of the pump. This is the very reason why innovators like monster pump Mike have increased the displacement of the plunger/cam system.

Is it possible to slightly increase the horsepower by programming precise control of the solenoid to provide better timed fuel delivery, sure, but that can be accomplished with the custom tuning in the Adrenaline module.

Anyone can spend a few minutes on the dyno to find the best tuning for their pump and truck, keep going up power levels.... keep adding pump stretch and advanced timing until it no longer makes more horsepower.

At the point of no more horsepower increase, you have reached the mechanical limit of the pump. Add more pump stretch and you lose power because the plunger is running dry and the injector is dribbling late fuel that robs fuel for the next cycle. Add more timing and you lose power because you're closing the bypass circuit before sufficient pressure is created in the plunger and therefore the start of injection is wasted dribbled fuel instead of atomized fuel.

How do you get a VP44 to spin up to 5500 rpm on an Audi, it's a smaller engine and doesn't take as much fuel to spin that many RPM.

How does JLent, and other's spin 4000+ on their trucks, they cut back the fuel stretch just a little so that the plungers don't run dry. Same thing an Audi does accept it has a smaller engine so it only needs 1400ms of pump stretch to reach 5500 rpm, where as the larger displacement Cummins needs 2000ms of pump stretch to reach a lowly 4000 rpm.


Please proceed with the ECM cracking, I hope I'm proven wrong, and I really do like innovation and new gadgets.

The first modification that needs to be made to spin 5000 rpm with a VP44 is a larger displacement pump that will stay together at 5000 rpm, to my knowledge, such a pump does not exist.
 
Big Blue24 said:
You're forgetting the mechanical injection aspect of the pump. There is a rotary cam inside the pump that pushes plungers, one lump on the cam lobe = one injection event. There is a "bypass" solenoid that controls when the injection event starts and ends, however, regardless of what the solenoid does, there is a point in time before and after each injection event when the cam lobe is before and/or after the plunger that pushes actual fuel to the injection line therefore you get one injection event.

This isn't a common rail injection system where fuel pressure is always present at the injectors and multiple injection events are possible. This is a one-shot-wonder.

The easiest way to produce the most fueling, up to the mechanical limit of the pump is to take over control of the bypass solenoid. With the Adrenaline or similar fueling box, you can fire the bypass solenoid (which actually closes the bypass circuit) before the cam even makes it to the plunger so that the very nanosecond there is enough pressure to pop the injector open, it starts to fuel and then the very second the cam rotates to where the plunger falls and pressure drops below pop pressure the injector closes.

Does the above method produce crude fuel delivery, sure, but that is the absolute mechanical limit of the pump. This is the very reason why innovators like monster pump Mike have increased the displacement of the plunger/cam system.

Is it possible to slightly increase the horsepower by programming precise control of the solenoid to provide better timed fuel delivery, sure, but that can be accomplished with the custom tuning in the Adrenaline module.

Anyone can spend a few minutes on the dyno to find the best tuning for their pump and truck, keep going up power levels.... keep adding pump stretch and advanced timing until it no longer makes more horsepower.

At the point of no more horsepower increase, you have reached the mechanical limit of the pump. Add more pump stretch and you lose power because the plunger is running dry and the injector is dribbling late fuel that robs fuel for the next cycle. Add more timing and you lose power because you're closing the bypass circuit before sufficient pressure is created in the plunger and therefore the start of injection is wasted dribbled fuel instead of atomized fuel.

How do you get a VP44 to spin up to 5500 rpm on an Audi, it's a smaller engine and doesn't take as much fuel to spin that many RPM.

How does JLent, and other's spin 4000+ on their trucks, they cut back the fuel stretch just a little so that the plungers don't run dry. Same thing an Audi does accept it has a smaller engine so it only needs 1400ms of pump stretch to reach 5500 rpm, where as the larger displacement Cummins needs 2000ms of pump stretch to reach a lowly 4000 rpm.


Please proceed with the ECM cracking, I hope I'm proven wrong, and I really do like innovation and new gadgets.

The first modification that needs to be made to spin 5000 rpm with a VP44 is a larger displacement pump that will stay together at 5000 rpm, to my knowledge, such a pump does not exist.
Click to expand...

Very good informative post! :clap:
 
Big Blue24 said:
Please proceed with the ECM cracking, I hope I'm proven wrong, and I really do like innovation and new gadgets.

The first modification that needs to be made to spin 5000 rpm with a VP44 is a larger displacement pump that will stay together at 5000 rpm, to my knowledge, such a pump does not exist.
Click to expand...

Dang, Big Blue24, you are absolutley NO FUN!!

So, you are saying that it's the physical size of our engines that is the limiting factor based on the rotor being drained by Cummins' displacement and injector size, etc....

....so why the need for the rpm limiter in the first place? To prevent rotor seizure in the mystical land of 3501 rpm? Could the engineers at Bosch be off by that much?

What's the rpm limit of a 97 P Pumped Dodge? An 03 and up CR?

No rotor to drain dry on those units....?
 
a 12v factory will normally only rev to about 3K rpm. CR engines around 3500. The engineers had more than pump failure on thier minds when setting the RPM limits. They were basically trying to keep people from blowing up these engines from over rev before thier warranty ran out. Then all that warranty work would cause them to go bankrupt. These engines will not last very long turning 4k plus RPM every day 24/7 in stock form. There are other things to consider besides the pump. Valve springs, poor rotating assembly balancing, some internals on the pump, ect.... I know alot of pullers are making some killer RPM's, but those guys are also going through thier engines about once a year or 2 to keep them up to par. These engines really are not designed to make RPM much over 3K and stay running top knotch.
 
If internal displacement is a factor in the amount of RPM and fuel that can be dilivered in the VP44, is there a pump that is similar to the VP44 from bosch that would have the capabilities to be for sufficient for higher RPM and fueling? If so, could it be used instead of the 44.
 
An ecm that can fuel higher then 2800 can be done. We have spoken to engineers at both cummins and dodge who say it is possible. There is some sort of code that has to be rewritten inside that thing, how it is done i am unsure. Pdi built or programmed an ecm Dave Philips told me directly it can be done and has. The reason they won't do it again I guess is the market is not there nor is he return on the investment. Fuel all the way to 5k may not happen but 4k is a different story.
 
the ecm that pdi did I was told pulled 5k full fuel. I was told this never saw a dyno sheet but Dave told me that directly
 
kino_fab said:
If internal displacement is a factor in the amount of RPM and fuel that can be dilivered in the VP44, is there a pump that is similar to the VP44 from bosch that would have the capabilities to be for sufficient for higher RPM and fueling? If so, could it be used instead of the 44.
Click to expand...

Yes, a p pump.
 
Dual vp's would be able to supply enough fuel at 5k just like the audi's then. Cut the work load in half
 
Pgdsm said:
Dual vp's would be able to supply enough fuel at 5k just like the audi's then. Cut the work load in half
Click to expand...

The pump itself is fine to 5k.

This is a software thing we are chasing. Let's get the ECM and the EDC dialed in first. Then see where we are with the pump. Full fuel to 5k is easily in the pumps capacity. Stock, it was built to run at 4500.
 
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kino_fab said:
a 12v factory will normally only rev to about 3K rpm. CR engines around 3500. The engineers had more than pump failure on thier minds when setting the RPM limits. They were basically trying to keep people from blowing up these engines from over rev before thier warranty ran out. Then all that warranty work would cause them to go bankrupt. These engines will not last very long turning 4k plus RPM every day 24/7 in stock form. There are other things to consider besides the pump. Valve springs, poor rotating assembly balancing, some internals on the pump, ect.... I know alot of pullers are making some killer RPM's, but those guys are also going through thier engines about once a year or 2 to keep them up to par. These engines really are not designed to make RPM much over 3K and stay running top knotch.
Click to expand...

Bingo.
 
Horsepwer @ 2800-3000 Is great with my set-up. @ 3200 its a dud with no fuel/power. I know I'm not running the rotor dry in the pump.
 
RJM06590 said:
Just to be different? A 13mm would be the same yet cheaper imo.
Click to expand...

yes, but the ability to control timing is sweet. ill take electronically variable timing throughout the rpm range to both spool turbos and have top end instead of static timing and heavy fueling.
 
cummins724 said:
Where is the rev limiter set? I'm running the beta 4 tune which doesn't have a adjustable rev limiter. Mine is factory set at 4150rpm. Without a rev limiter, my truck turns 4360rpm no problem.
Click to expand...
Stock 4k tune sent on the box. You sent me one of the beta tunes a couple months ago and it never ran right on this truck. I couldnt get it to smooth out. It started popping @3800 and got worse as rpm increased. Ive spent hours on changing the tuning on this truck and the Pulse data recalled 4082 on that particular pull. Whether it was when he come off the clutch or where it topped out mid track im not sure. I have been wanting to get on dyno with this truck just havent had a chance.

Here is another pull earlier in the year, same tuning @ 5:15

http://www.youtube.com/user/mymack9nozzle#p/u/32/0GwuP1zKwDE
 
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ThrottleJockey said:
Dang, Big Blue24, you are absolutley NO FUN!!

So, you are saying that it's the physical size of our engines that is the limiting factor based on the rotor being drained by Cummins' displacement and injector size, etc....
Click to expand...

See post 161 on pg 9 :bang
 
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