Who would be interested in a CNC ported head?

[Mopar Muscle]

This poll is to gauge market interest only. Please don't PM me as I am not a vendor, nor do I have a product to sell. Ask all questions in this thread.

I'm talking to a couple companies about developing a cylinder port for the Cummins 6.7l head. After that, I might look into working backwards to the CR 5.9, Gen 2 5.9, and 12V heads. I say developing because this is much more than porting a head and making sure it flow somewhat better than stock. The R&D process includes flow testing, making sure the valve sizes are optimized, use of pressure recovery dynamics and verifying proper port size. When flowing the head not only the flow rate can be measured, but swirl and tumble can be identified and modified to gain the maximum benefit for our application. Of course this would also include milling off the intake and drill/tap for a new side mount intake. All porting operations would be 100% consistently repeatable on a multi-axis CNC mill.

Now, with all this said, it wouldn't be cheap. I imagine it would be ~$2,000 range for a port job only or ~$3,500+ including a full rebuild of the cylinder head. I am ONLY mentioning a ROUGH price so people don't vote thinking this would be a low end cheap solution.

Let me know if this is something you might want in the VERY distant future.

(A little background on me...I usually post around CumminsForum, but lurk around here for good solid tech info. I am a Mechanical Engineer that use to have my own fabrication business, but closed it to get a job with benefits. That job is getting old, and I miss working for myself. I am doing market research as to what products the Cummins Diesel market lacks, to see if it is work re-opening my business.)

 

[Silver6spd]

That's kinda high even on an estimation. If I had a bare cylinder head laying on a bench I could port and polish it way easy with a dremel tool. Working with tool and die guys at a medical prosthetic company you can do more with your hands than using a CNC on heads. But I'll vote for it just b/c I know guys have more money to throw at there trucks than I do hahaha.

 

[StainlessRRA]

Have you put any thought into building your own head, and getting away from factory castings?

 

[Big Blue24]

I'm not terribly familiar with the consistency of the 6.7 head casting, but the older heads seem to have too much variation "casting bed shift" to go 100% wild port job without some sort of x-ray process or human input.

So part of your research would probably need to including examining a good sample of 6.7 heads to see how consistent the casting is from the factory.

You might be better off developing a new head from block of aluminum.

 

[RonA]

This poll is to gauge market interest only. Please don't PM me as I am not a vendor, nor do I have a product to sell. Ask all questions in this thread.

I'm talking to a couple companies about developing a cylinder port for the Cummins 6.7l head. After that, I might look into working backwards to the CR 5.9, Gen 2 5.9, and 12V heads. I say developing because this is much more than porting a head and making sure it flow somewhat better than stock. The R&D process includes flow testing, making sure the valve sizes are optimized, use of pressure recovery dynamics and verifying proper port size. When flowing the head not only the flow rate can be measured, but swirl and tumble can be identified and modified to gain the maximum benefit for our application. Of course this would also include milling off the intake and drill/tap for a new side mount intake. All porting operations would be 100% consistently repeatable on a multi-axis CNC mill.

Now, with all this said, it wouldn't be cheap. I imagine it would be ~$2,000 range for a port job only or ~$3,500+ including a full rebuild of the cylinder head. I am ONLY mentioning a ROUGH price so people don't vote thinking this would be a low end cheap solution.

Let me know if this is something you might want in the VERY distant future.

(A little background on me...I usually post around CumminsForum, but lurk around here for good solid tech info. I am a Mechanical Engineer that use to have my own fabrication business, but closed it to get a job with benefits. That job is getting old, and I miss working for myself. I am doing market research as to what products the Cummins Diesel market lacks, to see if it is work re-opening my business.)

This service is already available. There is a thread about it. Bryzenski(sp).

Cast Iron Cylinder Head | UnderCover Porting | Brzezinski Racing Products, Inc. #1 in Cylinder Heads since 1980

Not trying to discourage you. Just wanted to let you know.

 

[Snedge]

?? It's seems to me, that without actually filling the head, the limits have been found. I like the idea of the CNC doing all the work, however; I think most guys would be content to do their own grinding, or pay a local machine shop for near the same results.

It is time for a better cylinder head. There is a very good possibility we will see race heads in the not so distant future.

What company's are you speaking with?

 

[Mudn_1]

most pulling and racing engines are 12v, it seems to me there would be more interest there..... and probably 5.9 CR heads next....

 

[zstroken]

I don't think you can put a cummins head on a CNC and turn out a finished head. Rough porting yes, but porosity and casting shift are a problem, ask me how I know!

 

[Mopar Muscle]

That's kinda high even on an estimation. If I had a bare cylinder head laying on a bench I could port and polish it way easy with a dremel tool. Working with tool and die guys at a medical prosthetic company you can do more with your hands than using a CNC on heads. But I'll vote for it just b/c I know guys have more money to throw at there trucks than I do hahaha.

I know it's high. There is BIG bucks tied into the R&D for developing a port. I know the average person with good common sense can do some porting on these heads and come out with a product that will be better than stock. I'm thinking about paying someone who is the best in the business to developed a cylinder head that flows better than all other heads on the market.

Have you put any thought into building your own head, and getting away from factory castings?

Nope, I don't have that kind of resources at my disposal.

This service is already available. There is a thread about it. Bryzenski(sp).

Cast Iron Cylinder Head | UnderCover Porting | Brzezinski Racing Products, Inc. #1 in Cylinder Heads since 1980

Not trying to discourage you. Just wanted to let you know.

Thanks for the heads up. I have already found them when doing some research, but due to the wide range of services and product they offer, I didn't feel the head is the absolute best it could be. There is many things that need to change with port designs when your bore increases as much as the 6.7 did versus the 5.9. You have more valve shrouding issues to deal with (on the 5.9).

?? It's seems to me, that without actually filling the head, the limits have been found. I like the idea of the CNC doing all the work, however; I think most guys would be content to do their own grinding, or pay a local machine shop for near the same results.

It is time for a better cylinder head. There is a very good possibility we will see race heads in the not so distant future.

What company's are you speaking with?

Maybe so, that's the reason I'm asking. I'm not going to put any info out yet, as this is nothing more that market research for this product.

most pulling and racing engines are 12v, it seems to me there would be more interest there..... and probably 5.9 CR heads next....

True, currently the 12v's are dominating the pulling world currently. Once everyone figures out the in's and out's of the 6.7l motor, it might be the next 12v in the pulling work. People are currently working on 4k tunes for the motor, and the aftermarket world is still in it's infancy. They are developing new parts for these motors that should help make big power. Once that catches up, it might be a solid motor choice. If so, it wouldn't be bad to be the first one to market with a solid product.

I don't think you can put a cummins head on a CNC and turn out a finished head. Rough porting yes, but porosity and casting shift are a problem, ask me how I know!

How do you know if you don't mind sharing?

 

[zstroken]

I know it's high. There is BIG bucks tied into the R&D for developing a port. I know the average person with good common sense can do some porting on these heads and come out with a product that will be better than stock. I'm thinking about paying someone who is the best in the business to developed a cylinder head that flows better than all other heads on the market.




Nope, I don't have that kind of resources at my disposal.




Thanks for the heads up. I have already found them when doing some research, but due to the wide range of services and product they offer, I didn't feel the head is the absolute best it could be. There is many things that need to change with port designs when your bore increases as much as the 6.7 did versus the 5.9. You have more valve shrouding issues to deal with (on the 5.9).




Maybe so, that's the reason I'm asking. I'm not going to put any info out yet, as this is nothing more that market research for this product.




True, currently the 12v's are dominating the pulling world currently. Once everyone figures out the in's and out's of the 6.7l motor, it might be the next 12v in the pulling work. People are currently working on 4k tunes for the motor, and the aftermarket world is still in it's infancy. They are developing new parts for these motors that should help make big power. Once that catches up, it might be a solid motor choice. If so, it wouldn't be bad to be the first one to market with a solid product.




How do you know if you don't mind sharing?

I have a head that leaks!

There are 6.7 liter 12V motors out.

 

[COMP461]

Hand porting is the only way to maximum air flow out of a production quality head.

The core shift is the primary problem. The CNC head mention in that thread is almost 100 cfm behind the state of the art of the head currently going out.

A CNC machine can do anything a hand can do, if the proper fixtures are used, those fixtures are expendable and expensive to match a hand porting job. This is not a problem on a non production race casting, which is much higher in the quality of casting, and has major material in the areas that count. In addition the cast iron is a factor as well.


A good porter will measure the thickness of the casting as he is porting. Port work is still the cost effective way to reliable improve any engines performance. The porting portion is around $1200 to $1500 , for hand work, the rest of the work is valve job , intake manifold, and rebuild related. The valve job porting is where a lot of the additional flow is found on a ported head , the old 3 angle valve job went out in the 60’s the current performance valve job is infinite angle radius , with hand blending.


Everyone is always looking for the cheap way out, CNC roughing for a head porter to save time ,is a good possibility, but nothing can take the place of a good head porter , and flow bench.

There are to many people that get in to raising the performance of their diesel power plants, and spend money on dual fueler’s, twin turbo’s big injectors and every tuner in the world. Power is there, but it comes at a huge cost, in melted pistons, and blown head gaskets, and severely decreased reliability, and life span of the engine .

So on to stronger head studs , and every trick of the week to hold the head on , and steel pistons , there a great thought , one of the answers to a question that didn’t need to be asked , everyone that has any knowledge of high performance engine development is laughing their butts off at those .


The answer to performance is first to define what your goals are with your truck. Simple saying you want all you can get is a recipe for disaster.
If want 400 to 450 hp, then buy a tuner, and forget it. If you want 600 hp, which is almost undrivable , then you need to go with a combination that will live .

Before someone says they drive their 1000 hp every day , tell me that it’s on that tune, when you driving down the road. Also you are loading the truck to actually make that power level , an impossibility on any street tire on any public street .


At 600 hp dual fueler’s are not even in the picture , any injector more than 100 hp is not going to be the best way to go , twin turbo’s forget them, and for some of the trick of the week parts are just that , parts to sell you .
Modified rails are another one of my rants if anyone really believes these make any real performance gain , then there is some ocean front property in Arizona, along with mechanical belt driven lift pumps , that make enough fuel to run a fleet of truck. And on and on



Spend money of improving you airflow, whether you buy a beginners porting kit from Summit of Jegs, or go with a full tilt race head from Greg at ZZ.
Next is a camshaft. From any one of the knowledgeable cam people, Bill Fletcher, Don M , Geoff , or myself.

Go with a real street turbo no bigger than a 66 . I like the Silver Bullet or Phatt shaft from Industrial injection.
Injectors,,,,,, stay small, one size smaller they you think your wanting.

And have a fun truck that doesn’t break parts



I have thousands of dyno pulls on Project X diesel. with a ported head , and ZZ intake manifold , a set of Industrial Injection 90 hp injectors , a small II CP3 pump and a SB 66 turbo, a small cam , it made 597 with zero electronics . it ran hard , got good fuel millage, and the short block was a 218,000 mile used truck.


Project X was unbelievable to drive, in that state of tune; it would smoke the tires at will. Useing a Diablo Predator tuner, and use a towing tune and the hp went to 680. Bump it up to the extreme and 790 was there. It was dangerous at that tune, for anyone that was not extremely careful. Next toss in a .125 nitrous and the power went to over 900 hp .


I pulled a mirror of a high rpm tune , and had it modified and the power was well over 900 without the nitrous. This was not a dyno spike like a good deal of the people claiming big hp, but a pull that went from 90 mph to 200 mph and the power was real and flat

The moral to this rant , is you don’t need all the G=whizz parts , but concentrate on basic parts

 

[RonA]

I'm on Zach's list for one of his new heads. I'm sure it will be a while before they are done, but it makes the most sense to start with bigger ports. I also have a 6.7 head that has been crated up since the first of the year to go to ZZ fab. I hear good and bad about porting. Some say it is a waste of time once you go beyond bowl work. Some swear by the full deal. I have a stage 2 PDR head on my 5.9 and it has held up well(no leaks) so far. The porting on it is very mild. I was told to figure $6K for getting the head ported(both sides), cutting the intake, new intake, and new intake horn. From what i understand, that's about 225-230cfm worth. Stocks about 170-180. More porting and you are asking for leaks. Not my opinion, just what I was told. I have yet to see a comparison showing what could be gained. Probably about 1/3 of what could be gained from a cheap nitrous kit. I have also been told that the 6.7 head is not up to the flow from the addional cu/in and will always be a bottle neck(Cummins screw up). That's why they always seem to have drive pressure issues. Again, not my opinion, just what I've been told.
Makes it hard to throw down the $5-6K when you don't know if it's going to fix a proble, or create one.

 

[apocalypse1812]

You should do 12 valve heads first...

 

[nicks05]

hot damn, i work for the company mentioned above. by no means am i a salesman, i mainly do porting, v.j, & surface heads & whatever else in the shop is needed.
i'd be curious to see how it turns out for you mopar. are you wanting to develop a cnc port off the stock port or make your own design out of something billet? if you just do the r&d on the stocker, thats going to be just like doing cnc to a stock head & match it from cylinder to cylinder. (as we do)but let me tell you there is still a ton of material coming out by hand once we're done.
i can't see there being much difference in flow from the 24v-cr-6.7 head because the ports are similar. bores are only different i believe? i'm no expert here, i just do what the customers want.
anyways, comp461 pretty much summed it up in the the post above.

 

[COMP461]

The 24 valve head, CR and CR 6.7 are almost identical. The advantage to running a 6.7 is in the bore, and being able to use a lot bigger intake valve, The exhaust on all of these heads is considerable better then the intake, and the bottle neck is the intake .
The 6.7 added displacements is no gain at all, it’s actually a hindrance. With the poor port design on the Cummins it’s imposable to feed a 5.9 as well as needed , the manifold pressure equilibrate volumetric efficiency at 4500 rpms is around 50 to 60 % with the best heads , and below 40% with stock heads . the result is a bigger engine has even less ability to fill the chamber . I would on a drag racing application use the 6.7 block and a destroked 5.9 crank .
I have the crank on Project X destroked to 4 inched to get under the 5 liter class in land speed racing , and the results was the same power as the bigger engine.
I have some 12 valve , and 24 valve head coming with modified water jacket cores , just as I did with the Chevy inline 6 heads in comp. the water core is smaller , in the right areas , and with Greg at ZZ help the results should be over 350 cfm

 

[zstroken]

I am interested in what you mean by modified water jacket cores?

 

[COMP461]

I just had the water jacket core modified, so that the material is thicker in some areas, I have lots of experience with this type of deal in the past. Instead of working on a complete head, that may or may not every come, I just had the current heads modified. The ability to remove more material in strategic areas will dramatically improve air flow potential with porting.

Here is an example of my modified casting , this is a Chevy inline 6 head, that I had GM do for me. it was a solid head , without water jacket , or ports, it was basically a 300 lbs chunk of iron, it make 675 hp from a 265 cid inline on gasoline .
The guy is Al Weiss, former Crew Chief of Ed Hills top fuel dragster.
Every thought you wanted a billet Cummins head, he could do it easily.

 

[zstroken]

I meant are you welding up the water jacket areas, filling them, and then porting?

 

[COMP461]

no I just have them cast with thicker water jackets ,

Every hole , is machined , this head was totally solid . these heads flowed 400+ CFM

 

[JerrodGlover]

Greg this is Comp D (Diesel) not Comp Gas crap. Do you have someone casting Cummins heads with extra meat in them?