We race trucks not flow benches!

coon smile said:
I have shared these exact same feelings with other members here (it really doesn't matter what I say in the grand scheme of things, b/c I'm just another guy that likes to spend too much money on his diesel pickup - I haven't done anything in this sport to earn anyones credit). I will be honest. You were actually the first person I contacted when I was looking for a cam, but after a few conversations with you over the phone, it was obvious your main focus was to get my money. This was roughly 3 to 4 years ago. So maybe you have changed.

Going back to the credit thing: at the time, and still to this day IMO, my main contact at Diesel Pro's (Bill) was/is more credible. He was building, along with a lot of help from others I'm sure, some of the fastest trucks in the country. He still sells the same cam that was in his white truck, and if it weren't for everyones favorite CompD moderator, that truck would still be tearing up the strip. We all remember the crash....woops.

Going back to the salesman thing: at the time, and still to this day IMO, my main contact at Diesel Pro's (Bill) was/is not building cams and other diesel performance products to make a sale (or is it sell?? LOL). When I spoke with him over the phone, he couldn't care less about selling me a product. He would answer any question I had no matter if it was about cams, injection pumps, injectors, turbos, transmissions, suspension, tire pressures, 1/4 mi times/mph, 60' times, racing....life......whatever. He is an awesome RESOURCE across the board.

Zach, you have several advantages over Diesel Pro's. The main being you heavily market the industry/forums and you sell/develop parts to make a living (as far as I know, maybe you have another source of income). The owner of Diesel Pro's, Bill, manages crane moves at a large aerospace company in the Northwest to make a living. He doesn't market heavy on this forum or any other forums really, and he has his reasons - I think the main being he doesn't rely on the diesel performance industry to pay his mortgage. I think he is happy with a smaller customer base. If he helped only 1 or 2 trucks make the most horsepower out of their setup, he would be happy.

However, if you have ever spoke with the man, you would understand that his lack of marketing (commonly referred to as "posting info/specs/data") doesn't discredit his products, and I would never histate to hand out his number to a friend or anyone looking for help with their truck/setup.

At the end of the day, let's face it - he RACES TRUCKS not flow benches!
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COON SMILE, what a load of manure! COON SMILE "I WILL BE HONEST" when? This is such a lame and feeble attempt at being cagey, I thought you were better than this!
 
Coon smile,

Also, I have talked to Bill. I called him a few months and asked him to stop telling people my cams were made in China. He talked in riddles and rhymes for 30 minutes before we were finished. All that was conveyed was that he was a classy guy and that if I came up to him at a race he would pour me a martini made with Grey Goose and that he makes a lot of money and does not need to sell cams to make a living. As I can see in this thread he still says my cams are made in China. I will not try to challenge that any further. He can say what he wants.

Also, I do not have any special powers here on compD. I can neither delete, modify or move any threads.

These are the kind of days I loathe being in the business I am in.....when men that you thought were on the level, act like junior high girls.
 
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During my race engine research stage I was pretty set on diesel pros dual valve springs and his cam because I had read many good things of customer service. When I called to chat my specific setup he wasn't available several times. When I did get ahold of bill I was pretty much recommended an out of the box cam. I was looking for more of a specific cam for my application rather than "here try this." So I ventured to Zach and got a much more personal feel even tho I'm sure he doesn't remember the conversation. Also took the time to discuss several options and advantages and disadvantages of each. Over a couple conversations we decided on one. Whether or not a 200/220 is a one size fits all high rpm/performance cam he still went the extra mile. Based on that I figured I would trust the the extreme pushrods, extra treated valve springs, and keepers and retainers.
Also respect being very open to the public on specs so the customers know exactly what they're getting. Even tho most don't know what the numbers mean other than a 200/220 must be better than a 188 due to the fact is a larger value.
And many ppl vouched for him.

So in conclusion I'd say customer service won me over. Next would be reputation. Also would like to add that Zach said after the first conversation that if I wasn't happy with the current cam he would buy it back from me and give me something else at no charge.

Any dislikes would be certain parts costing considerable more than something like beehive springs for a sbc from comp cam.
 
Hamilton Cams said:
Thank you for the information. I race but I don't post videos............ maybe I should. What would constitute showing you? Does dynoing 7-8 cams back to back in 26 hours not show you?

I can tell by your response that even though I have Dynoed my cams against a stock cam a CR-5, and a DP-3 all in 26hours so that they cannot be called different conditions, that does not matter. Your response is illogical unless you think that my results are bogus because I lied or set the valves incorrect or something else. I did not install a single one so that could not be an issue. I did not even set valves on any of the tests, Ronald Reagan and Ryan Blair did all of the installs. I only ran the trucks. THey also did not know what cams were being installed.

I plan on being more involved in LSR and 1/4 mile racing this next year after I get enough money to afford it. You see I have spent every penny that I have made for the last 10 years in our head and cam developement.

Does this still not constitute showing you?

Zach
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Hey zach where is the thread where you dynoed one of diesel pros cams. I would like to see the dyno sheet please. I would like to see how your cam performed over theirs. I saw your thread the you started back in the day where you dynoed F1 cam. Also in reguards to that dyno, why did you set the lash on your cam tighter than on F1 cam. I am just wondering?

How does the 181/210 compare? - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together
 
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Hamilton Cams said:
Coon smile,

Also, I have talked to Bill. I called him a few months and asked him to stop telling people my cams were made in China. He talked in riddles and rhymes for 30 minutes before we were finished. All that was conveyed was that he was a classy guy and that if I came up to him at a race he would pour me a martini made with Grey Goose and that he makes a lot of money and does not need to sell cams to make a living. As I can see in this thread he still says my cams are made in China. I will not try to challenge that any further. He can say what he wants.

Also, I do not have any special powers here on compD. I can neither delete, modify or move any threads.

These are the kind of days I loathe being in the business I am in.....when men that you thought were on the level, act like junior high girls.
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So, where is your cam cast?

As I read between the lines, you grind cast cores in house?
 
Hamilton Cams said:
One other thing, I really appreciate you coon smile, in that you are not afraid to post up what you do not like about my products. I don't know if that is out of a need to discredit my products or if you just always speak your mind, you are at least consistant. Regardless, I respect that. What I don't respect are people acting to be your friends and then talking crap behind your back. That is something else, I do not understand.

Case and point. Copy Cat - GoDieselRacing.com - Where the FAST racers chat
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Friends? I don't see your point.

Charger said:
COON SMILE, what a load of manure! COON SMILE "I WILL BE HONEST" when? This is such a lame and feeble attempt at being cagey, I thought you were better than this!
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Settle down, guy.

Hamilton Cams said:
Coon smile,

Also, I have talked to Bill. I called him a few months and asked him to stop telling people my cams were made in China. He talked in riddles and rhymes for 30 minutes before we were finished. All that was conveyed was that he was a classy guy and that if I came up to him at a race he would pour me a martini made with Grey Goose and that he makes a lot of money and does not need to sell cams to make a living. As I can see in this thread he still says my cams are made in China. I will not try to challenge that any further. He can say what he wants.

Also, I do not have any special powers here on compD. I can neither delete, modify or move any threads.

These are the kind of days I loathe being in the business I am in.....when men that you thought were on the level, act like junior high girls.
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...take the good with the bad...
 
Lucky Jeff, I have not called anybody a thief. My goal was to buy a cam to see if the designs I have worked my tail off to come up with have been copied. I was going about it above board, and in public. I thought that was the honorable thing to do, but I will not make that mistake again. I know that fletch is saying that I copied him, but I can promise you that I would put up $10,000 bet that he is wrong on that one. I have the copies of the design bills if he wants to pay for my vacation. I will settle that one anytime he wants. In fact Bill, you care to make a little wager? In fact $10,000 is meager for a union hand, I will even consider wagering my business against yours, you game?

Cumins 359, I appreciate your business and hope that the cam is running well.

Explosives, The dyno comparisons are the 7 or so cams we ran in a just over 24 hours a few months back. I have not disclosed which cams were which because I wanted to avoid a crap storm. However, since we are in the middle of one, it couldn't hurt...right? If I recall the Dp-3 was about 8-12 hp under the 188-220. I will dig that up in a minute.

In the Helix to the old 181-210 dyno comparison. I know bill has a major problem with the fact that the lash was different in the two tests. I did not have to disclose any differences, but I felt to be fair I would disclose any and all variances. Don dictates that lash on his cam is .010" and .020" that is what they are set at. I dictate .010" intake and .015" or .020" on mine. That is what I direct my customers to do, that is how I ran the test. On the 181-210 the cam comes on slightly better with the lash at .015", with the lash at .020" there is a .5mpg bump and slightly cooler EGT, and slower spool. As long as the velocity of the lobe at the lift point at which the lash is taken up is not too high then that is a non issue. If the lash is so great that the velocity is very high then the valve tappet, pushrod, spring and valve will get a major shockload as they move from rest to very high velocity without a steady transition. Here is a visual explanation.
176-178.png

The top lines represent the velocity of the lobe at any given lift point, the bottom sets of lines represent the lift of the lobe vs duration. If you look at the top sets of lines that represent the velocity at the given lift point, the lobe starts it lift at approximately the blue line at .00001" from the red line to the yellow line velocity is almost identical even though the lobe is continuing to lift. At any point between the red and yellow lines that you take up lash the valve will be opened at an acceptable rate without a crazy shock that could break the cast tappet. Now say you fudge and open the valve with a lash setting of .027" which would be represented by the white line, the velocity is so great that you can easily damage the tappet or the valvetrain. With the 181-210 we have plenty or room to play around. Why not do it at any point between those two lines the velocity is the same. The fact that Don's directions were followed and mine were followed should not be a divisive point. The fact that Fletcher is using that as a point to discredit me is baseless, and actually kind of laughable. If you didn't know any better it might sound like a conspiracy though. This is along the same lines as Don 2 years ago saying that higher spring pressure will slam the valves harder, when it is common knowledge that the closing ramp is the only thing responsible for how hard the valves close.

Have I explained it to your satisfaction?

Astross, Turkey. Part of the agreement of Geoff from Colt cams is that I not disclose the factory. Until now I have neither diclosed the factory or the country. I hope you won't mind if I keep my word and not disclose the factory.


I will not have my cams ground on anything other than a CNC grinder, landis preferably. Since I do not have the 1.3 million clams for one of these, this dictates that I do not grind these in house. I can get a manual Van Norman grinder for 8k but I would not be able to sleep at night by using one when CNC's are available. I do not grind in house. If it would somehow make me seem more credible to grind my own cams in house, even though they were cut on a sloppy manual machine, I would not do it. LSA varies by up to 1.5+ degrees Lift will vary over .003" on lobes in the .275" range which can make the duration vary quite a bit on some lobe shapes.

Coon, It just turns my stomach when guys you have sold stuff too and drank beer with are trashing you. As for the good with the bad, I take them both, no problem there.
 
Zach, so you're not using a cummins ugl cam for your grinds? Thats how Im reading your post about not disclosing where the cams are cast.
 
Never said they were. I paid for the molds, they are cast for me. They are made in a plant that also makes cams for Cummins. Geoff and I designed the actual core, not Cummins.
 
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If the OP asks for my opinion I will be happy to give it. Short of that, i'm a little too haggard for another boxing match today.
 
Hamilton Cams said:
I know that fletch is saying that I copied him, but I can promise you that I would put up $10,000 bet that he is wrong on that one.
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Who told you this? He never told me that, and that isn't what I'm trying to say either. Either you don't believe his time line that he posted (behind your back, on an open forum, in a thread started by one of your followers) and he's copying you, or he actually did have all of this figured out years ago when he was out accomplishing these feats, not just talking about them. I liked the fact that you were on here all the time answering questions many didn't. I had no problem with suggesting a couple different cam guys to anyone that asked. But now that you think you're the cam god and no one can figure out a good design, and going after those that have figured it out as well. I'm not really inclined to do the same anymore.
 
coon smile said:
Zach, you have several advantages over Diesel Pro's. The main being you heavily market the industry/forums and you sell/develop parts to make a living (as far as I know, maybe you have another source of income). The owner of Diesel Pro's, Bill, manages crane moves at a large aerospace company in the Northwest to make a living. He doesn't market heavy on this forum or any other forums really, and he has his reasons - I think the main being he doesn't rely on the diesel performance industry to pay his mortgage.

I find this statement of Coon Smiles' to be the most informative, he explains that Bill"s waking hours are almost completely consumed in a demanding career in the aerospace industry managing crane moves, this career would take all his focus while at work, and a lot of thought before and after shifts as well. Coon Smile when does Bill have time to apply his concentration to: the diesel products he sells, to reasearch and development, dyno testing, metallurgy, advancements in technology, testing his products, refining his products, keeping up with the new diesel product lines coming out of detroit, interacting with customers, running the company in general? In fact Coon Smile aren't you the one telling us he doesn't have the time to devote to his diesel products business to do it properly, that he is too busy in his full time career?
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Thank you zach for the info, where might I find that thread on those cams and are the graphs posted in the thread?
 
Charger said:
I find this statement of Coon Smiles' to be the most informative, he explains that Bill"s waking hours are almost completely consumed in a demanding career in the aerospace industry managing crane moves, this career would take all his focus while at work, and a lot of thought before and after shifts as well. Coon Smile when does Bill have time to apply his concentration to: the diesel products he sells, to reasearch and development, dyno testing, metallurgy, advancements in technology, testing his products, refining his products, keeping up with the new diesel product lines coming out of detroit, interacting with customers, running the company in general? In fact Coon Smile aren't you the one telling us he doesn't have the time to devote to his diesel products business to do it properly, that he is too busy in his full time career?
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You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. If you think that Bill has just sat back and thrown some numbers for cams up there hoping to hit the nail on the head. Well, quite honestly, you're a moron.
 
Lucky Jeff said:
You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. If you think that Bill has just sat back and thrown some numbers for cams up there hoping to hit the nail on the head. Well, quite honestly, you're a moron.
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Jeffrey, you are mistaken, it is Coon Smile who is giving us the information, that Bill is completely preoccupied in a full time career not in the diesel industry, and that Bill only has a very limited amount of time to devote to his diesel products business. On a side note Coon Smile's information has let me know that Bill really isn't into it, and I won't any longer be considering his products.
 
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